What Compensation Am I Entitled To?
Oct 27, 2016, 10:14 am
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Programs: BA Blue, Qatar Gold, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott Gold
Posts: 494
I know this for the future :P
Oct 27, 2016, 10:17 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Programs: BA Blue, Qatar Gold, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott Gold
Posts: 494
The laws of kashrut?? Some rules stating that you can't eat heated food??
Sir/Madam, it is really your own problem that you can eat the same food as the majority of the pax on the flight. Try to imagine if all pax asked for customized food.
Anyway, IMO you received a fair compensation. I would have skipped a Y class meal any day in return for USD 75.
Sir/Madam, it is really your own problem that you can eat the same food as the majority of the pax on the flight. Try to imagine if all pax asked for customized food.
Anyway, IMO you received a fair compensation. I would have skipped a Y class meal any day in return for USD 75.
So are you are blaming me for keeping Kosher? Blaming me for not eating something not kosher? My point is that the meals were not cooked, so personally I don't think anyone would eat a frozen meal still frozen.
I am genuinely saddened at the response of some of the FT community. Having read this blog since I was 16 and seeing so many people so very helpful, it is a true shame this is my experience asking for help.
Here's hoping this is just a few people rather than the majority.
Oct 27, 2016, 10:35 am
#18
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: AMS/RTM
Posts: 2,827
I find this very interesting, and while I agree that you should have probably packed some kind of acceptable snacks, if you order a kosher meal you should get a kosher meal.
Which brings me to this point: in order for kosher food to remain kosher it needs to be cooked using "clean" tools. How do you know that:
(i) all flight crew knows this and for example does not remove a seal before heating your meal, and
(ii) when you are served a kosher meal all rules have been followed and you are simply not getting a "no pork no shrimp" meal?
If you were flying on LY you would have a reasonable expectation to keep 100% kosher, but isn't there a degree of discretionality when in a situation over you have no control? Or to rephrase: apart from not feeling comfortable, couldn't you have eaten your reheated meal and discuss the issue with a rabbi later?
I hope I don't come across as insensitive.
P.S.: I would still write to SQ. You won't probably get anything else, but explaining what happened will hopefully help them improving their processes.
Which brings me to this point: in order for kosher food to remain kosher it needs to be cooked using "clean" tools. How do you know that:
(i) all flight crew knows this and for example does not remove a seal before heating your meal, and
(ii) when you are served a kosher meal all rules have been followed and you are simply not getting a "no pork no shrimp" meal?
If you were flying on LY you would have a reasonable expectation to keep 100% kosher, but isn't there a degree of discretionality when in a situation over you have no control? Or to rephrase: apart from not feeling comfortable, couldn't you have eaten your reheated meal and discuss the issue with a rabbi later?
I hope I don't come across as insensitive.
P.S.: I would still write to SQ. You won't probably get anything else, but explaining what happened will hopefully help them improving their processes.
Oct 27, 2016, 10:42 am
#19
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: ELP
Programs: AA EXP/LT PLAT, Marriott Titanium/LT PLAT
Posts: 4,120
No worries, I will explain 
To cook a kosher meal in a non kosher oven, it need to be double sealed which these meals are sealed in foil and plastic. Only when I open the meal from the plastic and foil can I find out if if it is cooked or not. Unfortunately once I found out it was not cooked, should they heat it up further in the oven, the meal would no longer be kosher as it is not sealed and is being cooked in an oven that non kosher food would have been cooked in, such as pork.
Hope this clarifies slightly.
To cook a kosher meal in a non kosher oven, it need to be double sealed which these meals are sealed in foil and plastic. Only when I open the meal from the plastic and foil can I find out if if it is cooked or not. Unfortunately once I found out it was not cooked, should they heat it up further in the oven, the meal would no longer be kosher as it is not sealed and is being cooked in an oven that non kosher food would have been cooked in, such as pork.
Hope this clarifies slightly.
Please understand that I am not being rude and I respect your right to religion and choices, but given the fact that you are flying a non-Jewish airline, how do you expect the line staff to know this stuff?
Oct 27, 2016, 10:50 am
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Programs: BA Blue, Qatar Gold, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott Gold
Posts: 494
I find this very interesting, and while I agree that you should have probably packed some kind of acceptable snacks, if you order a kosher meal you should get a kosher meal.
Which brings me to this point: in order for kosher food to remain kosher it needs to be cooked using "clean" tools. How do you know that:
(i) all flight crew knows this and for example does not remove a seal before heating your meal, and
(ii) when you are served a kosher meal all rules have been followed and you are simply not getting a "no pork no shrimp" meal?
If you were flying on LY you would have a reasonable expectation to keep 100% kosher, but isn't there a degree of discretionality when in a situation over you have no control? Or to rephrase: apart from not feeling comfortable, couldn't you have eaten your reheated meal and discuss the issue with a rabbi later?
I hope I don't come across as insensitive.
P.S.: I would still write to SQ. You won't probably get anything else, but explaining what happened will hopefully help them improving their processes.
Which brings me to this point: in order for kosher food to remain kosher it needs to be cooked using "clean" tools. How do you know that:
(i) all flight crew knows this and for example does not remove a seal before heating your meal, and
(ii) when you are served a kosher meal all rules have been followed and you are simply not getting a "no pork no shrimp" meal?
If you were flying on LY you would have a reasonable expectation to keep 100% kosher, but isn't there a degree of discretionality when in a situation over you have no control? Or to rephrase: apart from not feeling comfortable, couldn't you have eaten your reheated meal and discuss the issue with a rabbi later?
I hope I don't come across as insensitive.
P.S.: I would still write to SQ. You won't probably get anything else, but explaining what happened will hopefully help them improving their processes.
So basically, cooking a kosher airline meal is very simple and all airlines seem to know what they should be doing if they offer it. Before they cook it, they will bring the meal to you on the tray. It is large plastic tray that is sealed. They ask you to break to seal (to make sure you are happy it is kosher and untampered with), or you can ask them to do it which I am happy for them to do.
After layer 1 is taken off, they take out the part of the meal that needs to be heated. It is a normal airline meal as such but wrapped in sealed foil and then a sealed plastic bag. They can put it in the oven on pork using milk tools should they wish (extreme example). The laws of kashrut dictate that as long as the product is sealed twice, you can cook it in anything using anything if you see my point. Then then put it back on the tray with the other parts of the meal and I simply unwrap the hot part of it.
In regards to your 2nd point, I wish it was as simple as that. The laws of kashrut and kosher meals are far more than that. Should they have been that I would have eaten a veggi meal. Without boring you to death, you could take a look into kosher meals on wiki should you wish to research it (but personally there are far better things to do) haha.
Again, thanks for the questions! Happy to answer
Oct 27, 2016, 10:51 am
#21
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Programs: BA Blue, Qatar Gold, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott Gold
Posts: 494
If you require all of this to happen before eating, it should be BYOF from now on.
Please understand that I am not being rude and I respect your right to religion and choices, but given the fact that you are flying a non-Jewish airline, how do you expect the line staff to know this stuff?
Please understand that I am not being rude and I respect your right to religion and choices, but given the fact that you are flying a non-Jewish airline, how do you expect the line staff to know this stuff?
Fully understand you are not being rude!
Oct 27, 2016, 11:32 am
#22
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: SFO
Programs: Anything that still flies F
Posts: 66
I agree that the service was unfortunate, but what are you really expecting in terms of compensation? I think the $75 was fair, and maybe a sorry email but I don't expect you getting more than that.
Oct 27, 2016, 11:55 am
#23
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: MNL / SFO / NYC
Programs: IHG Spire | Marriott Plat | UA Plat | AA Plat Pro
Posts: 533
It's kinda funny (or ironic) that SQ is looking into launching a Tel Aviv route and hasn't sorted our Kosher meal service.
That being said, you can't really expect more compensation than what was already given but you can try to contact them and they might surprise you (unlikely).
That being said, you can't really expect more compensation than what was already given but you can try to contact them and they might surprise you (unlikely).
Oct 27, 2016, 1:14 pm
#24
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
@Ryanfozzie
1. Ignore the non-helpful replies from those who do not understand how religious meals are supposed to be prepared served onboard.
2. Accept the suggestions that you have a back-up snack, portable foods that can be taken through security. I learned to do this a lifetime ago, mostly because ordering vegetarian (not vegan or GF) meals on some airlines ended up with meals that were either not edible or had nausea-inducing ingredients.
It should not have to be this way but it is.
3. I fly multiple airlines, as most of us do. I order different special meals depending on the carrier and the point of origin. It took me a while to learn about how one airline's fantastic "vegetarian" is called something different by other airlines.
That said, I've ordered kosher out of LHR and HKG and they were outstanding. Same company provides the frozen hot portions. The other items (fruit, desserts, breads, margarines, jam etc) seem to come from other suppliers in multiple countries. Kind of cool really.
I order Kosher on specific routes for specific reasons. Same with my veg meals.
One airline I fly frequently for my TPACs has very well-trained crew. They know exactly how to prepare and serve the Kosher and Halal meals.
However, my experience is that despite the packaging instructions on the hot portion, due to the double-foil wrapping, the length of time specified is actually not hot enough depending on the ovens on some aircraft. So, having once received a cold hot meal, I now ask the galley crew to heat it longer than required. That seemed to work.
Further, many of the side items are also frozen, like the bread rolls in the cellophane wrapping. That might be a bit more of a challenge if the cellophane is not oven-certified. But a creative crew can find a solution.
As to the issue of being served the wrong meal in the wrong order, on a recent TPAC, crew from another Asian carrier brought me the appetizer that was listed on the menu as the light-meal express service. I told them that's not what was on the menu. The FA was confused. I sent her to the ISM and they both came back to apologize. Apology was not necessary, but how could the crew not know what to serve in what order in the Business cabin? And this was a regular meal.
I was once advised by senior crew to speak to the ISM or Galley Master as soon as I board, tell them that I had ordered a special meal, make sure it was boarded (often it is not) and ensure that the right meal is heated for dinner or breakfast.
I would be less bothered eating breakfast for dinner or the other way around than I would if I was on a 16-hour flight and my special meals had not been boarded at all. Twice recently, I gave my main meal to other pax in PE and Y as I heard from the ISMs that their meals had not been boarded.
I was fine with snacks, fruit, a spare salad etc, but they had nothing.
I am quite sure SQ and other airlines use the same catering for some of the religious and dietary meals. Depending on the point of origin, it might be worth a call to either the airline or caterer to find out more about what is available.
If you have any other questions, feel free to post or PM.
1. Ignore the non-helpful replies from those who do not understand how religious meals are supposed to be prepared served onboard.
2. Accept the suggestions that you have a back-up snack, portable foods that can be taken through security. I learned to do this a lifetime ago, mostly because ordering vegetarian (not vegan or GF) meals on some airlines ended up with meals that were either not edible or had nausea-inducing ingredients.
It should not have to be this way but it is.
3. I fly multiple airlines, as most of us do. I order different special meals depending on the carrier and the point of origin. It took me a while to learn about how one airline's fantastic "vegetarian" is called something different by other airlines.
That said, I've ordered kosher out of LHR and HKG and they were outstanding. Same company provides the frozen hot portions. The other items (fruit, desserts, breads, margarines, jam etc) seem to come from other suppliers in multiple countries. Kind of cool really.
I order Kosher on specific routes for specific reasons. Same with my veg meals.
One airline I fly frequently for my TPACs has very well-trained crew. They know exactly how to prepare and serve the Kosher and Halal meals.
However, my experience is that despite the packaging instructions on the hot portion, due to the double-foil wrapping, the length of time specified is actually not hot enough depending on the ovens on some aircraft. So, having once received a cold hot meal, I now ask the galley crew to heat it longer than required. That seemed to work.
Further, many of the side items are also frozen, like the bread rolls in the cellophane wrapping. That might be a bit more of a challenge if the cellophane is not oven-certified. But a creative crew can find a solution.
As to the issue of being served the wrong meal in the wrong order, on a recent TPAC, crew from another Asian carrier brought me the appetizer that was listed on the menu as the light-meal express service. I told them that's not what was on the menu. The FA was confused. I sent her to the ISM and they both came back to apologize. Apology was not necessary, but how could the crew not know what to serve in what order in the Business cabin? And this was a regular meal.
I was once advised by senior crew to speak to the ISM or Galley Master as soon as I board, tell them that I had ordered a special meal, make sure it was boarded (often it is not) and ensure that the right meal is heated for dinner or breakfast.
I would be less bothered eating breakfast for dinner or the other way around than I would if I was on a 16-hour flight and my special meals had not been boarded at all. Twice recently, I gave my main meal to other pax in PE and Y as I heard from the ISMs that their meals had not been boarded.
I was fine with snacks, fruit, a spare salad etc, but they had nothing.
I am quite sure SQ and other airlines use the same catering for some of the religious and dietary meals. Depending on the point of origin, it might be worth a call to either the airline or caterer to find out more about what is available.
If you have any other questions, feel free to post or PM.
Oct 27, 2016, 1:51 pm
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
Yes. Usually, in term of kosher meals, the U.S. and European airlines perform better than Asian due to the population.
Another $75 in flight voucher.
Asian airlines are not fond with the "compensation" concept. Even I feel for the OP, the chance of getting a decent compensation is practically none.
Another $75 in flight voucher.
Asian airlines are not fond with the "compensation" concept. Even I feel for the OP, the chance of getting a decent compensation is practically none.
Oct 27, 2016, 2:09 pm
#26
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: SQ *Gold
Posts: 871
I am sympathetic with the OP on this one and disagree with those who contend that he is being overly entitled or making unreasonable demands. (and I am speaking as someone who is non-religious and generally does not agree in giving special treatment or religious exceptions.
But, if Singapore Airlines chooses to offer a particular service and markets it, then it has a responsibility to deliver what it promises. If SQ did not want to provide a kosher meal service, then it has that choice and the OP could have flown another airline that did. But since SQ says it would provide a competent Kosher meal service, then it is clear that the OP's experience is unacceptable and that SQ or its service providers screwed up. Seeing as the meals were screwed up on BOTH flights but he only received a voucher for the first, I think it is perfectly reasonable for him to receive a second $75 voucher to compensate for the second flight.
My suggestion would be to write a complaint in writing detailing the problems and request that second voucher. But for future reference, it sounds like you will have to do as some of the posters have suggested and read up on some blogs from other observant long-haul travellers and prepare contingencies for food.
But, if Singapore Airlines chooses to offer a particular service and markets it, then it has a responsibility to deliver what it promises. If SQ did not want to provide a kosher meal service, then it has that choice and the OP could have flown another airline that did. But since SQ says it would provide a competent Kosher meal service, then it is clear that the OP's experience is unacceptable and that SQ or its service providers screwed up. Seeing as the meals were screwed up on BOTH flights but he only received a voucher for the first, I think it is perfectly reasonable for him to receive a second $75 voucher to compensate for the second flight.
My suggestion would be to write a complaint in writing detailing the problems and request that second voucher. But for future reference, it sounds like you will have to do as some of the posters have suggested and read up on some blogs from other observant long-haul travellers and prepare contingencies for food.
Oct 27, 2016, 6:53 pm
#27
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SIN (LEJ once a year)
Programs: SQ, LH, BA, IHG Diamond AMB, HH Gold, SLH Indulged, Accor Gold, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 7,732
+1. SQ offers kosher meals and the crew is trained in the prep steps as to heating and serving. No reason for this to go wrong so many times.
I second to write to them and just let them know about he issues. I wouldn't ask for more compensation, just share facts so they can improve. Especially in light of supposed rumors that SQ is looking at TLV as a future destination to serve,they better get this right.
I second to write to them and just let them know about he issues. I wouldn't ask for more compensation, just share facts so they can improve. Especially in light of supposed rumors that SQ is looking at TLV as a future destination to serve,they better get this right.
Oct 27, 2016, 8:30 pm
#28
Join Date: Mar 2015
Programs: HH Diamond, GHA Titanium
Posts: 1,961
To cook a kosher meal in a non kosher oven, it need to be double sealed which these meals are sealed in foil and plastic. Only when I open the meal from the plastic and foil can I find out if if it is cooked or not. Unfortunately once I found out it was not cooked, should they heat it up further in the oven, the meal would no longer be kosher as it is not sealed and is being cooked in an oven that non kosher food would have been cooked in, such as pork.
My view is that if an airline decides to offer kosher meals, they should PROPERLY offer kosher meals. If their operations isn't going to be able to handle it properly then don't even offer the option.
Having said that I've not met a single jew in my 30-odd years of life in south east asia, so I wouldn't be surprised that not many people in this neck of the woods are experts on what is and isn't kosher.
Nov 1, 2016, 5:53 am
#30
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
ue to the laws of kashrut
At my gate, a SQ manager came over, very sorry and said crew of previous flight asked for me to be upgraded to PE, but they could not do this.
The senior came over and was very sorry they could not offer anything else, nor upgrade to PE.
Why do you keep telling us about some attempts for upgrades. I fail to see the connection in this story. Well, I am sure SQ has a procedure to upsell to PE.
Unfortunately due to the laws of kashrut, I could not have them heat it up.
You did not pay to get a private jet with special ovens.
Last edited by warakorn; Nov 1, 2016 at 5:58 am