jtkauai

First, I can't understand why there isn't a sober travel forum as there must be a very large number of us out here in FTville. Travel and sobriety is an incredibly good topic and would probably be of interest and service to many here at FT.

I emailed Randy several times about a year ago to ask about bringing this to the board (or whatever would be needed) and never received any response. I did however get very favorable response to the idea from one of the senior forum moderators. After that I dropped it.

Since I see little or nothing about sober travel here on FT (but lots about drinking and travel), and since this forum is the most logical place I can thinking of to post it, I thought I'd just post, say hi and see what others are thinking.

Personally I've traveled around the world sober and it has been tremendously rewarding. Before getting sober, I traveled around the world drinking. What a difference! Last year we were in Hong Kong. I thought I remembered a lot about it but it seems that my memories of that city was very cloudy from lots of drinking on my earlier visit many years ago.

I still remember my first travel experiences in early sobriety flying in F, sitting next to a person who was drinking in great excess and having to deal with that. And staying in hotels and other accommodations with vintages flowing in abundance, mini-bars, etc. And so many other experiences related to traveling sober.

I've managed with the help of my higher power to stay sober through all of it. And I'm hoping for a place to share about my sober travels and FT seems like the place. I look forward to hearing from others.

LapLap

???

Not sure why there'd be a need for a forum for FTers who prefer not to drink alcohol.

I enjoy a drink, only very occasionally do I allow myself the 'luxury' of getting drunk, but I'm fully able to travel without.

I haven't been able to touch a drop of alcohol since the start of February (as I'm on a course of medicine) and my life hasn't changed noticeably as a result.

Is it that you feel particularly alienated when FTers start boasting or going into details about the liquors, champagne or beer they've consumed?

There are plenty of threads about non-alcoholic beverages - here's a current one about melon soda in the Japan thread.

I'll bet you find it as interesting and enthralling as you do the majority of the interminable (hard) drinking threads... i.e. not very much .

I don't eat any meat apart from fish, and FTers go on and on about BLTs, hamburgers, chicken and beef dishes. I don't think I'd want to have a vegetarian forum open up so I can avoid this kind of banter though.

Don't you even cook with alcohol? I can't stand lager (blonde beer), it literally makes me gag, but I tend to have a bottle or two of it at home handy as it's a great ingredient (combined with soy sauce, some garlic and ginger, makes a fantastic stir fry sauce, all the alcohol evaporates). Sake, wine, sherry and dry vermouth are also indispensable in mine and any serious cook's kitchen - whether they are teetotal or not.

Alcohol is such an integral part of almost any country's culture (and there are only a small handful of nations where this isn't true) that refusing all knowledge or dialogue of it seems a little...mmm... insular? (is that the word?)

And there are ways you can enjoy the side effects of alcohol without touching any - have you considered a balsamic vinegar tasting tour around Modena? (Good balsamic vinegar is absolutely delectable, capable of all the nuances and depth of a great wine - and you'd be surprised at how few FTers have actually experienced truly great wines) Or how about touring Britain's gastro pubs and enjoying our latest dining renaissance? - pork cooked in cider, steak, ale & kidney pies, fish fried in beer batter and other British classics are currently experiencing a welcome revival - and there are delicious organic juices to wash them down with.

wideman

Seems to me to be an excellent idea. There are lots of forums that I'm not much interested in, but I still support those forums' existence.

This particular forum has been a great example of a place where people might feel considerably more open to discuss certain travel topics; it's not difficult to think of several others where that's also the case.

As much as I invariably respect LapLap's posts, I'd have to say that her post in this thread demonstrates, to me, just why a Friends of Bill W. forum would benefit FlyerTalk. In such a forum, it's unlikely that someone would post that they can take or leave a drink when traveling -- for a great many people who would be interested in a FoBW forum, such a comment really misses the point. And, for those who might make such a comment, a FoBW forum might be an excellent opportunity to become better educated.

All that said, a FoBW forum would of course need to respect all viewpoints (for example, whether or not such viewpoints concur about higher powers, etc.)

jk2317

He's talking about traveling the world as a recovering alcoholic, not as someone "who prefers not to drink." As you mentioned, there's a lot of culture around drinking in many countries, and I imagine this makes it even more difficult to stay away (for those who need to).

Certainly the alcohol recipes list isn't helping, either...

If we're going to have a forum on religious travel :gag:, I fully support what sounds like a useful resource for people who could use the support.

LapLap

Sorry - I thought Bill W - might be some kind of Billy Graham persona - it made a sort of sense to me that there would be religious sects that prohibit alcohol.

I think there's also a problem with many FT users forgetting that not everyone who posts here is entirely familiar with North American customs and culture.

I've grown up with Catholocism (which is inseparable from wine) and I've spent the last few years taking part in religious rites that involve the use of Sake. So, for me, a religious forum isn't a natural home for this kind of question.

But I did give up meat (which was my very favourite food) and only started to eat fish again after about 9 years as a compromise to my health (I'd suffered a succession of nerve problems). Giving up meat - which I still get cravings for - is something I don't regret and I've come to see it as an opportunity it has opened many culinary doors to me.

I apologise that my last post was so heavy on the drink references, but my point was that one can completely avoid alcohol whilst still enjoying part of the culture that surrounds it.

I very much doubt that enjoying sips of balsamic Vinegar in Modena is going to drive anyone back to habits they'd rather leave behind them. And enjoying culturally important beverages in food can open up a new and completely different appreciation for them - obviously, there's no need to stock any of it at home!

I'm sorry I worded my previous post insensitively - but the intention behind it was not unkindly. I just can't help but believe that the best approach, as a traveller, is to continue cutting the alcohol out of your life, but not the drinks themselves.

wideman

I'd imagine that a FoBW forum would be useful for people with common issues and interests to share information -- where to find meetings when you're in Shanghai, tips when traveling with others who are unaware of or insensitive to recovery. etc. Seems pretty similar to the reasons for any number of other forums.

jtkauai

Thanks for the supportive feedback.

LapLap, AA (of which Bill W. was the founder) is a spiritual program, and thus the pertinence of posting in this forum. And as mentioned by others, such a forum has nothing whatsoever to do with drinking non-alcoholic beverages. With reference to your comment "I think there's also a problem with many FT users forgetting that not everyone who posts here is entirely familiar with North American customs and culture," may I say that AA is hugely popular and virtually as ubiquitous in the UK as it is in the US.

oldpenny16

I think a Friends of Bill W forum would be a very good idea and may be extremely important to someone far from home in the middle of a long night. Might save a life!

To answer LapLap on the issue of cooking with wines. The answer is absolutely no! Not all the alcohol cooks out and even the smell of it can triger a disaster in someone who cannot drink even one little drop. Sometimes even seeing a bottle that looks like a beer bottle, but is root beer (a soft drink) may be too much.

I have witnessed too much heartbreak caused by people who are alcoholics to put it in the same catagory as a religious food preference. Alcohol to an alcoholic is poison.

planeluvr

I thought the same thing since it was posted in Religious travelers. I didn't realize it pertained to AA.




If you want to suggest a new forum, please post here.

LapLap

Yes- and I know this organisation under the AA title.

I'm also very aware of how widespread the Salvation Army is and the work they do, but I wouldn't expect others to know that the founder's name was William B (ooth).

For over ten years my life revolved around music 'bands' and venues where musicians perform (venues invariably associated inextricably with alcohol). I've known a lot of people who realised that drinking was a problem for them and who subsequently gave it up. Completely.
The Straight Edge movement ended up becoming an enormously successful motivational tool for those whose lifestyles were inspired by punk and certain kinds of Rock. So I'll admit that my own experience supporting people who've chosen sobriety is through this movement rather than the AA. Wherever possible, I did what I could to tangibly assist them (I negotiated with Pub Landlords to ensure that acceptable alternatives were always available and that these were chilled and, whenever I could, I organised events where no alcohol was available so that all ages could be welcomed).

It seems obvious that there are many, many ways of dealing with this issue - and I now realise that what I've said will be, to some, just as unacceptable and insensitive as someone urging me to eat a risotto laced with chicken broth because the bones and flesh pieces have been removed from the plate (and yes, I've had to deal with an awful lot of this kind of ignorance, and no, I didn't appreciate it either. I understand that I may have come across as completely hypocritical.)

You may also like to know that my husband is significantly allergic to alcohol - none of it gets left in his food (at least not when I cook it), he is a living barometer - only the tiniest amount will turn him as red as a beetroot and his eczema gets pretty aggressive with the higher levels of histamine.

I mentioned 'Straight Edge' to make sure that you all realise that Bill W's organisation isn't the only temperance movement and a new forum would have to encompass everyone who abstains from alcohol and embrace and include their own ideologies and methods for dealing with their problems.

Not everyone who has successfully battled with alcohol and given it up views drink in the same manner as someone who is extremely allergic to nuts is forced to regard a peanut. I have no idea how you would reconcile the different paths people take to sobriety in a new forum.

I do wish everyone who is on this road the very best and sincerely hope for their continued success.

jk2317

LapLap I do agree, and should have mentioned in my earlier post, that "friends of Bill W." was maybe a too-obscure way to refer to AA in a more general forum. Heck, I don't even know why I know what that means... too good a memory for my own good I suppose.

Anyway, interesting point about straight edge and other roads to sobriety.

jtkauai

I concur that should we have a sober travel forum, it should include points of view beyond AA. Having said that however, the intention of my original post was to see if there was any AA community within Flyertalk willing to identify themselves (believe me, there are a ton of AA's here). When you say "friend of Bill W.," that is something that every member of AA anywhere in the world understands.

cblaisd

Since the creation of new forums is under the Talkboard's aegis, I'm going to move this to the Talkboard public forum from the Religious Travelers forum

Btw, I think this is a great idea.

cblaisd
Senior MOderator

gleff

I guess I wonder whether a separate forum is the right way to do this, or whether it's an ongoing thread (eg a single ongoing conversation which may well get quite long). Perhaps it depends on the number of people likely to participate, the number of different topics to discuss,etc. Or maybe it would be best starting as a thread and then growing organically from there. Not opposed to the idea by any means, just trying to get a feel for it.

jtkauai

Thank you sincerely gleff for jumping in on this so quickly. I understand and concur with your point of view. I think that if sober members (and others with interest in this topic) feel comfortable and wish to identify themselves, then indeed there would be more than enough chat over a long time, such that it would be appropriate for a forum. On the other hand if people don't for whatever reasons step forward and participate herein, then a thread may well suffice. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Two other thoughts:

1. It would be my hope that this thread/forum could also serve as a place for members of our community concerned with their own sobriety, and drinking/drugging issue to be able to post questions, concerns and interest vis-a-vis sobriety (as it relates to travel). I can remember in early sobriety for example wondering how I would handle airplane travel, hotel mini-bars, and how to find like minded people in foreign countries for example. I am aware of no other place that provides this kind of comprehensive information or discussion.

2. I discussed the idea of this forum with two friend/FT moderators, who both expressed their support for it.

Mahalo!