GreatDane

Noticed that SK 771 is departing CPH for TLV today at 10.50 p.m.
Arriving at 4.15 am. So 4˝ hours flying time total.
Operated by A320
This seems like an absolute nightmare of a trip for me.
Who can sleep on an A320 in 'Go' or 'Plus'?
Which hotel will let you check-in at 5a.m-ish without a hefty surcharge?

Expertflyer shows flight wide open - no wonder for me.

I do love the idea of SK having this route - I know many EU/Mid-East flights arrive/depart in the night - but that doesn't force SK to do the same.
Any ideas why they chose this timing? Any idea how the route is doing revenue-wise? I know it has opened AND closed in the past - did it have similarly silly timings back then?

livious

We flew this route last summer in a 737 and thought it was tough despite much better flight times (note: this was ARN-TLV 13:30-17:30 and TLV-ARN 8:10-00:05). I just checked the flight schedule and it looks like an absolute nightmare, as the return is at 5:15. Just nothing good about those flight times.

I realized that I have not answered your question, but the schedule change will not help the route economically. As you noted, 4.5 hours in a A320 (or B737) is not fun and it will definitely be difficult to sleep ( and I can easily sleep in almost any seat). I am hoping that they can fix the timetable as the service is a nice alternative to the usual destinations...and TLV was a pleasant surprise as a travel destination.

One further note: outbound was 80% full...only 15-20 people on the return

helosc

I did this trip in December-January and it was NOT a pleasant experience.
No sleep at all on the way out and also none on the way home as you have to be at the airport in the middle of the night.
I will look for connecting day time flights next time (or Norwegian which has slightly better times).
I have also been wondering why SAS chooses these odd times.
I guessed that maybe the slots in Israel are cheaper at these times???

We had a 100% full flight both ways (but it was the Christmas holiday).

SK AAR

My guess: utilisation of aircraft. This departure time allows SK to use an aircraft that would otherwise be idle over night at CPH.

LH does the same on its North African routes. An A321 will be able to make the round trip e.g. FRA-CMN (Casablanca, Marocco) over night and be back in FRA for the early morning flights to various European destinations.

FlyingMoose

There is 777 service from both BA (late flight only) and LY from LHR, probably not worth the additional time but if you want a better chance to sleep it is an option.

Most other TLV routes from Europe have moved to A320/321 and 737 service. I would opt for the quickest day flight alternative.

Not having a TLV route would just make you look even less like a serious airline so I guess SK is doing it under minimal circumstance.

GreatDane

I think you are right - it is the only explanation that makes any sense.
If they can fill it with these horrid departure times good for them.
But I will personally look for anything during the day if flying on such a small aircraft for such a long stretch. Basically they are totally messing with the passengers' bodyclock - when they don't have to. And a connection in VIE/FRA/MUC is fairly easy.
Looking at expertflyer a lot of the flights seem wide open though so I wonder if others think like me...

view

I needed to travel for a midweek meeting this winter but could only find a SK flight with Saturday departure. Really inconvenient with one weekly. I also disliked the horrible timings.

I booked TK due to the best product and price from Oslo.

Seems SK added a Thursday departure this summer, but again it is very limited options for business travel. The Saturday departure can be tricky because SAturday is the slowest travel day of the week and there are not a lot of connections to CPH for people flying in. But in terms of getting right into the Israeli working week it is brilliant, you can go straight to the office Sunday morning. Too bad you did not sleep a wink on the plane and look like a wreck, probably need a shower too so you need to book and pay for the night prior.

FlyerTalker01565

A lot of European connections to TLV have these horrible times. Here's a tip for when you land at 5 am in Ben Gurion:

Pick up your rental car and beat morning traffic through Jerusalem; book yourself into a day spa/hotel for a couple of hours on the Dead Sea and drive back to TLV rested and tanned at noon. It's not a big schlep and sleeping a couple of hours next to the warm, salty water in a nice sunbed is the best cure for a crappy flight.

UltraRant

The main reason is that the airports in the Middle East are open at night for flight traffic and aircraft can be used for a much bigger deal of time this way. Yes, the flight schedule sucks big time.

LH has done the same (as has OS, LX, etc.) with all of their 'short' ME routes, including but not limited to TLV, AMM, BEY, CAI, etc. where they also changed to short haul material. I've been on a few of those flights. I mostly remember the AMM-FRA route, as I had Atilla the Hulk in the middle seat next to me. Not a pleasant experience...

I think one of the reasons why the flight is still wide open, is that it is absolutely the least attractive destination now for a mileage run. It used to give a load of miles, now it's in the same lousy Europe zone giving equally many miles as CPH-HAM, but costing significantly more (both in money and time) and messing up your clock. Plus that getting in and out of Israel is a small nightmare when you have one Arab stamp in your passport...

@view: Please note that the cheapest tickets on TK won't earn you a single mile on EuroBonus...

@CKCPH: I remember I tried to do that on the other side of the Dead Sea. I wanted to get there by taxi for some relaxation. My trip was cancelled due to rain and slight fog: conditions that made any work impossible in Jordan.

FlyerTalker01565

Sort of like when there's a snowflake in London or when NYC has a blizzard warning in effect: absolutely nobody could possibly be asked to go anywhere, ever. I was in NYC when the Snowpocalypse was supposed to happen; I swear I would have biked in Copenhagen with the light drizzle it ended up being. No Newyorkers to be found anywhere except hoarding stuff at Union Market.

Anyway, I'd pay good money for a proper service to Israel, preferably in a widebody. As a tech hub, it's a place I have to go regularly and whatever you do, you're stuck with either a horrible schedule, horrible seats - or both (thanks, SK).

UltraRant

LX still sends an A330 to TLV. I've been on that one.

GreatDane

Agree - i remember a few years ago when LH had 747 service from FRA to TLV departing around 10am - perfekt connection from CPH( leaving 7am).
Nice C and even F service on that flight. return was also great arriving back into CPH around 11pm -including connection in FRA.
Who now serves TLV with widebody Aircraft and from where in Europe? I found LY twice daily from LHR and BA once daily and LY on a 763 one daily from CDG - although only one of those from LHR is a daytime flight (the other two being overnight) and the one from CDG also having nice dep/arr times.

view

But watch out - this one is prone to substitution (for A320) the minute LX has any snag in their longhaul network.

I'm looking at another trip for next month and I'm considering Austrian. One of the 2 daily departs at 10.25 from VIE and lands into TLV at 14.55. You can get a return at 16.10 from TLV. It doesn't kill me in terms of timing like SK, but it's also a shorthaul narrowbody product. And you waste a day on the way down there. TK still gives me more options with lots of daily flights into TLV.

Ready a funny article on the LH forum about how TK is boasting big increase in revenues on TLV route after LH went from 747/A340 to A320 NEK operation.

UltraRant

The funny part with TK is that I first have a 4 hour or so feeder flight into IST on a 737 or A320, followed by a 2 hour hop to TLV on equal material, where with LH/LX/OS I start with a 2 hour feeder flight on a 737 or A320, followed by a 4 hour flight to TLV on equal material.

Not sure why TK is much better here, apart from the enormous amount of daily departures and the chance (but no certainty) that you may bet a semi-proper C product. On the other hand, LH/OS/LX even give miles on their cheapest Y product.

SK2751

LY does widebody from WAW, but this is a hit or miss. I think most often you see 737, but larger machines are regular too. I wonder whether this is predictable though (have seen 747 several times including last week). If you buy tickets late, you can probably rely on the info in the reservation system.