Jenbel

Good point - when still a practicing Catholic, that always used to shock/surprise me (probably because of the amount of work put in to be able to take Holy Communion ), and now I'm lapsed, I wouldn't go to receive it because I'll never be in a state of grace. And because of the requirements one has to go through to be able to take Communion, usually there aren't too many eyebrows raised if you sit it out.

As for the kneeling issue, I can think of much worse ways to behave in a Mass than not kneeling (like some non-Catholics at a friend's wedding who had obviously never been in a Mass before and giggled their way through, finding it highly amusing ). Indeed, I think it's questionable whether I would kneel - on the one hand, old habits die hard - 16 years of attendance at Mass does enstil it into you, on the other I amn't a practicing Catholic anymore, so I'm not sure it's appropriate I kneel.

One area I find difficult is when I attend concerts in churches - I regularly go to concerts at York Minster, and I find it really difficult to treat it as just a concert venue.

rkt10

Analise, I'd love to. Actually I'd also like to find something close to home that was a pre-Vatican II rite. I think we have managed to squander much of our precious litergy in the name of modernizing.

The old litergy created an environment of spirituality and calm which made it easier to reflect on God. The music was written by the masters, and was so much more complex and satisfying than some of the stuff that passes for hymns nowadays. Thank goodness that "folks masses" went away. They were just plain awful.

My brother lives in the St. Paul area and the St. Paul cathedral has Latin Masses every Sunday. Wow it's great visiting him, and although I'm not jealous by nature, here's one area where I get a twinge.

As tough as it is to admit, I believe the practice of my faith became significantly harder without the Latin Mass.

Besides (on a lighter note) it was good to hear Latin in your ear as a way of absorbing other Latin languages.
Rita

rkt10

We knelt until Vatican II. Sometimes I think that there was a mini land-grab when it came to the interior architecture of RC churches after Vatican II. Lots of architectural details were sold off in the name of streamlining the appearance of the altar. Like altar rails.

I miss kneeling for Communion. Actually if you want, it's permissable to kneel and the priest will give you Communion on your tongue. It's just awkward and generally it seems sort of "grandstanding" to kneel when everyone else is standing.

You can also receive Communion on your tongue by keeping your hands folded instead of opening them. That's easier to do than kneeling. I do receive on my tongue. We were taught not even to chew the host. Rather to use your tongue to move it around until you could swallow it... out of respect and humility at the prospect of receiving Almighty God.

Oh, as far as the folded hands, yes, it's for a blessing. Mostly I see parents with underage children whose hands are folded across their chests. That is an indicator to the priest that the child has not yet received his/her First Communion.

Jenbel, I have a question/comment regarding how you behave in a Catholic Church. Do you no longer believe in the Catholic Church at all, or are you lapsed for other reasons? The reason I ask is that if you believe in the Church, then whatever you do in within the church is respectful to the religion that you don't fully participate in. So, for example, if you believe Christ is present at the Consecration, then kneeling is appropriate and doesn't contradict your beliefs.

Rita

cincypix

Bottom line first: just try to find a way to comport yourself that won't be too much in conflict with the other worshippers.

I'm RC and have been to mosques (on stories in my journalism days) and went to Buddhist temples in Thailand, but had never been to a synagogue til last Saturday. Occasion was bar mitzvah for SO's colleague's son at upper class Conservative (DIY: no rabbi) congregation.

At the entrance to the synagogue, the worship items and books are more or less neatly lined up.

There's the obligatory head covering, in my case a yarmulke with the boy's name and BM date. A thoughtful touch, and fine souvenir -- along with the shot glass I got at reception after service .

Mitzvah's aunt urged me to don the tallit -- even though the congregation's brochure clearly stated they were for Jewish men only -- so I put family first this time.

This particular congregation's Saturday morning service leading up to Mitzvah's moment of truth was mainly reading the appropriate Torah and Haftarah, mostly silently with the cantor or other celebrants kind of summarizing the points of prayer.

Fortunately the books have English translations and transliterations of the key Hebrew phrases which i whispered (bad voice working telephones all week).

When I had read ahead a bit in the service I would close my eyes and nod forward slowly a little bit. It may have been very well inappropriate for the denomination but after seeing so much video of certain styles of Jewish worship (and my vision of RC being prayer as much calming meditation as worship), I just ploughed ahead. If we drew looks, it was because SO was so well turned out, befitting her COGIC background, complete with hat.

For us, it was just as much standing solid with a young man taking full responsibility and becoming his own man in the community. He read more confidently from the scroll than his Mom or sister (tgh whn yr rlgs txt hs nly cnsnnts).

For me, I can only say I'm glad Confirmation can be done as part of a group. (Note to self: must get a good kugel recipe for holiday cooking.)

Dovster

I think I may have to wander into Omni-land with this post in order to lead the flock out of that den of inequity.

One of the greatest minds in the history of the Catholic Church was Thomas Aquinas. He taught that man has an obligation to try to understand, and thus know, as much as he can about God but there are -- and have to be -- many things about Him that man is not able to understand.

These must be accepted as items of faith, not knowledge. Indeed, according to Aquinas, if man were able to understand God completely there would be nothing left for faith and without faith religion is meaningless.

So if we are tempted to say that we "know" the unknowable, instead of taking it as an item of faith, we are contradicting the philosophy of this very wise man. (His teachings on this point, incidentally, have been accepted by many theologians of different religions.)

Let's stick with saying, "Jews believe" or "Catholics believe" or "my own religion believes" and keep away from using the term "know" when describing articles of faith -- it will help keep this forum un-Omnified.

wideman

Ah, right, that will avoid controversy (ho!-ho!). Maybe better to say "some congregations follow a practice of ....", or that "Jewish law requires...."

rkt10

Dov,
This is probably the tricky part of this forum. To explain my use of "know" (deliberately in quotes), was to create a framework of explanation on why a non-Catholic should not receive Communion. This gets back to the original question of the thread... regarding behavior in another religion's place of worship.
Rita

Analise

While I love your reminding me of the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, when I say that I "know" referring to anything about my religious faith, it is that very faith which makes it very natural to use that verb. Look up the verb, 'to know', in the Merriam-Webster online dicitionary. I am very partial toward Merriam-Webster. The verb captures exactly what I mean.

wideman

You may know "A" to be true, and I may know "B" to be true, and those 2 true things may be incompatible. A is true for you, and B is true for me.

Someone wise once said "The only truth is that there is no truth."

rkt10

I disagree. The notion of external truth (regardless of individual opinion... which is mostly all we have) would say that truth can exist.
R.

prncess674

I have never felt that NOT kneeling during the consecration is disrespectful. I come across this often. My mom's family is Catholic, Dad's family is Jewish and I was happily raised Methodist. I have great respect for all religions but during the consecration I choose not to kneel because I do not believe that the bread and wine are becoming the body and blood of Christ. I sit quietly and sit forward so anyone sitting behind me may kneel. As a Methodist we take communion as a rememberance of Christ. I do kneel at other parts and pray respectfully. New Orleans is a huge Catholic community and have attended a lot of Masses. My parents were always big on getting an "injection of God" weekly. I was a big fan of attending Saturday evening Mass with my Catholic friends rather getting up at the crack of dawn and going to Methodist church on Sunday AM. In fact just Sunday I attended Mass at the Basilica in DC.

Analise

I've never heard it described as you have -- "a mini land grab". That's quite depressing.

My sentiments exactly. I think my own parish is a diamond in the rough.

rives21

Rachel, please see post #45 above.

If you are not Catholic and you are in a Catholic Mass, then I respectfully submit that it doesn't matter what you find disrespectful or not. Throughout this thread, there are essentially two positions from which one can post - that of a worshipper (an insider, if you will) and that of a visitor (or outsider, if you will). When I tell you that I as, an insider, and am offended by what I perceive to be disrepectful actions by an you, an outsider, I don't see how you can disagree with that. It may be surprising to you or I may be silly or too sensitive.

Jakebeth

rives21 - I'm curious to know whether you do, or do not, often see people sitting during the portions of a Mass when others are kneeling?

prncess674

sorry that you find it offensive but I have spoken to a priest about this practice and I was told that it was okay to politely sit quietly in my seat during the consecration. Kneeling during the consecration is a very solemn moment in which followers of the Catholic church state "I am not worthy to receive you, but just say the word and I will become you." Just because you as one lone Catholic are offended is not means enough for me to change what the parish priest told me is acceptable behaviour.

Also I think you are being entirely too sensitive in this matter. I did not say it was disrespectful for a non-Catholic to kneel. I stated that I thought it was disrespectful to your beliefs to take part in a ritual in which I didn't believe. I am not against kneeling and praying, because as a practicing Methodist we do kneel and pray to the Lord.

I personally am offended and find it disrespectful that you keep referring to non-Catholics as outsiders. Maybe you should open your heart to the Lord and learn acceptance of others whose faith may be different than yours.