jabez

Have to agree with DOC.
Since sometime between the 3rd and 5th Century AD a yarmule (kippah)is worn because the Jewish men believe the head should be covered in the presence of God (I'm oversimplyfying here).Similar to the yarmulke is the zucchetto worn by Roman Catholic clergy.
I think that wearing one is especially respectful, just as taking a hat off when entering a church or not wearing shorts in a cathederal. While 1 Cor. adresses Christians praying with theit heads covered, there's nothing in the New Testament that even implies "A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke". Actually, the emphasis on "honor" in the Bible is not on "self".

Casimir

I just found this forum and I'd like to thank Dovster who I know was a supporter of such a forum and anyone else who was involved in setting it up. I will be a daily read for me and I hope many others.

FWIW, I think Dovster's original post was a model of prudence and respect toward other religions. I bow to absolutely nobody in my orthodoxy as a Roman Catholic. If I observed somebody acting as Dovster suggests in his OP (not likely unless he's within a pew of me as I'm trying to pray usually), I would probably figure he was a visiting Catholic from one of those new churches with no kneelers!

I don't mean to derail the discussion, but I have had a interesting experiences going to Roman Catholic mass in different countries (and once in the US) with a foreign language used. I speak decent Spanish so that was no problem, I even received some compliments. Italian is close enough to Spanish and Latin that I drew no attention to myself. I went in Nazareth to an Arabic mass, and pretty much everyone could spot me as non Arabic (very large, pale skin, full head of blonde hair), and but for knowing the mass by heart, I really didn't follow it very well (it was confirmation day and the Bishop was there to boot).

Interestingly, when I lived in Chicago I went to mass at the beautiful and historic St Hyacinth's Church in the middle of the local Polonia, and the mass was in Polish. About half way through the mass I noticed that I was starting to get some stares, as I couldn't even credibly mumble something like the prayers, nor could I say "Peace be with you" in Polish. I am of Polish descent, but do not speak it. I tried gamely, but by the end of the mass, I was a bit uncomfortable. Particularly since I went to communion, I realized that some folks in this very Polish church might have been suspicious of what a non speaker was doing there, and whether he was actually Catholic!

I'm not arguing for Latin to come back as a result, but . . . .

Jakebeth

You should have told those Chicagoans your name. Anyone from Chicago who doesn't associate it with Polish hero Casimir Pulaski doesn't deserve to claim local roots.

I wish I could offer you a link, but there's an article I'm thinking of that was too far back; I don't know how to find it. I believe it was in the NY Times within the past 3-4 years though. It was a very long piece about the friction between older Catholic churches in NY that prayed in English and Latin (if I recall correctly) and the difficulty many neighborhoods had as Spanish-speaking parishoners moved in. Then, of course, given that it's NY, there developed problems between the Mexicans and the Dominicans, among others. A fascinating article.

There's an old joke about the Jewish community like this too.

A rescue party finally finds a Jewish man who's been shipwrecked on a deserted island for many years. They are amazed to see how industrious he's been. He's dug a well and constructed a complex system to bring running water to the sturdy house he's built from reeds, wood and leaves. He has domesticated some small animals and bred them for food. He's built a fishing raft from which he can catch nets full of fresh fish. The rescuers, however, are perplexed by two buildings, on opposite ends of the island.

"What are those," they ask.

"Well, this one is my synagogue."

"And the other?"

"That's a synagogue too, but I wouldn't be caught dead in that one!"

Of course that's also a commentary on the notion that two Jews produces three opinions, but I digress.

If I come across the article again I'll try to post it here.

Casimir

Thanks Jakebeth ! Alas, Casimir is a pseudonym, but your point is well taken. I indeed chose it because of Pulaski, because I assumed that my other hero's (Kosciuszko) first name, Thaddeus, was already taken!

The thing about latin was a joke, but I remembered something interesting I saw in Rome a couple of years ago. A confessional had a list of the languages the confessor was competent in, and it was impressive -- seven or eight, some of them relatively obscure (Finnish, Danish). The last one on the list was latin. There are some "modern" sins I'm not sure how to say in latin!

salut0

Ah but there are people who know how to say anything in Latin. Google "Father Reginald Foster", for example.

craz

as for a Non-Jewish Male covering their heads, I still dont know why they must, after all they arent Jewish and the Covering of the Head doesnt apply to them.

its better for them to do so unless they have a tell tale sign that says they arent Jewish, since everyone will think they are and ask them to put something on their head.

I wouldnt see it as a sign of disrespect if a Non-Jew didnt want to cover his head. The one exception was Kurt Waldheim who as Head of The UN still refused to cover his head when he went to Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Museam in Jerusalem) even there if someone didnt want to put a covering on it wouldnt bother me, due to Waldheims Nazi past it bothered me.


As for myself Id never pray along with others according to their Religious beliefs if it was contrary to mine. So with the exception of a Mosque, I cant forsee myself being in another House of Worship , so the case wont come up. Especially with a Church where the Proper Way is to go bareheaded. cant see a Shik doing that, heck they wont remove their Turbin when going thru Security at an airport, its against their Religious Beliefs to expose their hair.

So instead of being Disrespectful of another Religion Ill just not enter, so as not to get into the predictament to begin with.

Had the problem at The Alamo , where they wanted me to remove the cap I was wearing, once I explained that it was for religious purposes they said its OK. I told them I could walk the 15 mins to where I parked my car and get a covering that would be more acceptable, they said 'Its OK as long as we know thats its due to Your Religious Beliefs and that you arent wearing it for any other reason'.

Jakebeth

Will they allow you to approach the Kotel bare-headed if you tell them you're not Jewish?

craz

if they will or not. I think a Non-Jew should be allowed to go bare-headed. But again everyone will get annoyed since they wont know that he is a Non-Jew, and its best for him to have a head covering.

While the case for a Woman and how she is or isnt dressed is another issue. Since a woman must be covered in ways a Man does not need to be, for a different reason, it makes no difference if she is a Jew or Not. A man can wear a tank-top and no one will say anything, as it would be deemed a shirt covering. Which will NOT be the case if it was a Woman who was wearing it and not a Man.

I for one would prefer if a Non-Jew wishes to have a head covering that he wear a Baseball cap rather then even the paper Yamukas, that are provided at the Kotel. Theres no reason for them having to wear a Religious article that is not of their Faith. Although in and of itself a Yamuka does NOT signify anything.

I dont like it when a Non-Jew does put on a Talis in a Temple simply cause Most men are wearing one. That is a Religious Garment that is worn by a Jewish Male once he marries,there are times during the Service when even a non-married Jewish male will put one on, but he does remove it once he has finished the purpose for which he put it on. I think that the Sefradim have a Male wear one once they become Bar-Mitzvahed.

Sometimes fitting "In" causes one to go overboard. I do appreciate that many times its done out of Respect and sometimes even cause a Jewish person tells them not to do so is disrespectful. But that isnt the case. And we are faced with people NOT Knowing what is proper from both sides of the Aisle.

It would be as if a Non-Jew who comes to Israel, decides to uphold ALL the Laws pertaining to the Jewish Shabbath, so as not to be disrespectful. Or to only eat Kosher food when in Israel. Theres no need for that.

Pureboy

Sorry, I was away on a week for vacation (thats what many of us FlyerTalk-ers do, no?).

What makes me more uncomfortable with Catholic history? Crusades, Inquisitions, certain roles in the Holocaust, fun stuff like that. Not being accusatory of the religion as a whole, but you won't find that kind of history with Buddhist and Shinto relationships with Judaism. Also, the use of the "Old Testament" in ways, to put it mildly, that run contrary to my own beliefs as an Orthodox Jew. As for that link on Catholicism vs. Idolatry, I found it very informative. And if I followed the Catholic faith, I could see how I would be comfortable with it not being idolotry. And my brother recently told me about rulings in Jewish law that say while Catholocism is idolatry to Jews, it isn't considered idolatry to gentiles. That sounds contradictory, but there are many real-world consequences to that, and if you ever study Talmud, you'll see that statements like that end up being far from contradictory.

And according to my beliefs, that actually makes sense. Many interpretations of the sin of the Golden Calf say that the Calf was not replacing God, it was replacing Moses. Thus, the idolatrous sin was the Calf being used as an intermediary. Also, religious iconography representing God (and various anthropomorphisms, such as the eucharist) can be construed as a type of idlolatry.

Its getting a bit off-topic, but my point is that it isn't so clear-cut.

And as for the ceremonies being beautiful, steeped in tradition, etc., I have no argument against that. I'm sure its great, and have no beef with the Catholics in the world. Just isn't my personal cup of tea.

Now, how I reconsile that with a 50-foot tall golden Buddha? Thats harder.

stinky123

People have to decide where they will tread along the line of respecting their own beliefs and trying not to insult others when they are guests in a different house of worship. When my husband has been to the synagogue before, or to the funerals of my Jewish relatives, he has chosen not to wear a Yarmulke. This is a little disturbing to my dad, but I don't think it's reasonable to insist that someone wear a religious garment if they do not subscribe to the religion in question. My husband is there to be part of the family or to show respect to the deceased, not to LOOK LIKE everyone else.

Analise

Would your husband wear a t-shirt and shorts to a funeral? As you said, he's not there to look like everyone else. I see it as the same thing. If men cover their heads in temple just as they wear a jacket and tie in temple to show respect, why stand out especially if you're there to show respect for a loved one or friend? I guess I just don't understand that.

craz

This was getting so interesting, I decided to ask the Rabbi of the Local Young Israel the question = hes an Orthodox Rabbi.

He answered , ' That from the Point of view of Jewish Law, there is NO reason whatsoever for a Non-Jew to have to cover his head be it a Yamaka or Hat when inside a Shul/Temple.' and further he says he makes it a Point to tell even the Politicians when they come that they need not cover their heads. He said most do in order to associate with those in attendance. But that NOT doing so is NOT a sign of Disrespect.

what an Individual feels or another Religion holds is of No importance, its what the Law says that counts. Im sure there will be those who will be uncomfortable with this

Analise

Ahhhh, but did you ask him about wearing a t-shirt and shorts to temple?

Seroiusly, glad you were able to ask a rabbi. It's great to get their insight. ^

craz

Ive been to Orthodox Shuls/Temples where there were MEN wearing T-shirts and Shorts. You would see it all the time in the summer at The Kotel (Western Wall) in Jerusalem.

The above would NOT be the same regarding a Woman

SJC1K

Do you mean "that not doing so is not a sign of disrespect"?

In any case, I'm glad to hear the rabbi's opinion. I still think that, because covering my head doesn't violate my own principles or beliefs, I would cover my head in a synagogue because my not doing so would likely be a distraction or annoyance to some people. Whether it should be or not, I would rather not interfere with someone else's worship or prayer.