Frankfurt Airport Genital Cupping...
Feb 9, 2009, 6:59 pm
#46
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SLC or DUB
Programs: The program formerly know as WorldPerks
Posts: 330
Well, I might get a lot of grief from some of you, but....
If someone ever grabbed "me" during this, I'd have an instant "knee-jerk" reaction to the incident followed by a very loud tirade calling this guy a sick pervert, etc, etc. You can damn well bet I'd make the biggest scene possible. I would rather get arrested in some foreign country, then let some sick *&$* grab my junk and get away with it.
If someone ever grabbed "me" during this, I'd have an instant "knee-jerk" reaction to the incident followed by a very loud tirade calling this guy a sick pervert, etc, etc. You can damn well bet I'd make the biggest scene possible. I would rather get arrested in some foreign country, then let some sick *&$* grab my junk and get away with it.
Feb 9, 2009, 8:20 pm
#47
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of DFW
Programs: AA PLT, HH Gold, TSA Disparager Gold, going for Platnium
Posts: 1,535
lobster - not so much as I would have and have had the same reaction, and will do it again. I was at a concert working standby medical(with credentials) when a rental security ape(security jacket, but no credentials) who was "guarding" the back and decided to frisk me as i passed through the gate, well during his "frisk" he grabbed me and before the ape knew it he was on the ground with a bleeding broken nose in a arm bar that i didnt let up until real cops showed up on scene to see what the commotion was as the ape was screaming like a little girl. There's more to it but pissing off a paramedic isnt a bright idea, and grabbing someone during a "frisk" can be charged as sexual assault if the prosecutor feels like it.
Now if this happened at the airport the same thing would happen and I would be pushing for aggravated sexual assault just to make a example out of someone. Maybe the clowns at TSA HQ would take notice if some of there employees ended up in jail for improper screening techniques (ala nipple ring incident, etc)
Now if this happened at the airport the same thing would happen and I would be pushing for aggravated sexual assault just to make a example out of someone. Maybe the clowns at TSA HQ would take notice if some of there employees ended up in jail for improper screening techniques (ala nipple ring incident, etc)
Feb 10, 2009, 6:06 am
#48
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Wow... I use FRA as my homebase and have to say that I NEVER experienced a situation as described here.
I'm german but that shouldnt make a difference.
I fly to the U.S. on AA, LH, UA and SQ and as I said never a problem except the metal detector reacts. Then they handscreen with a Garrett device and ask for the jeans button to be opened.
Either I dont pay attention or my face says "leave me alone".
I'm german but that shouldnt make a difference.
I fly to the U.S. on AA, LH, UA and SQ and as I said never a problem except the metal detector reacts. Then they handscreen with a Garrett device and ask for the jeans button to be opened.
Either I dont pay attention or my face says "leave me alone".
Feb 12, 2009, 1:22 pm
#49
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 92
Close to four weeks after the incident I received the following reply.
The problem I have is that they say that the search was done "exactly according to the official orders" but nobody is willing to tell me exactly what these orders are.
Some people say they must use the back of the hand, and given they way I was treated it must mean that the front of the hand complete with a full lifting of my penis and testicles are also acceptable.
I honestly find this hard to believe and given that the staff member also flatly denied his "cocktail" speech I really do feel that this person had had plenty of time to work out exactly what he did.
Suppose the main dot points are that FRA staff are allowed to get away with extremes of search and no set of genitals is too far, and it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to define exactly what the rules are as per the "German ministry of the interior".
I'm very dissappointed to say the least.
Dr G
Following the employee’s description of the screening procedure we could assess that he conducted the screening exactly according to the official orders laid down by the German Ministry of the Interior. We deeply regret that you feel uncomfortable with this kind of screening. According to your description and to our recordings you discussed this point with two of our supervisors and two officers of the Federal Police directly at the checkpoint. They explained that this procedure is to be conducted due to the official orders. We kindly ask you to accept this.
Some people say they must use the back of the hand, and given they way I was treated it must mean that the front of the hand complete with a full lifting of my penis and testicles are also acceptable.
I honestly find this hard to believe and given that the staff member also flatly denied his "cocktail" speech I really do feel that this person had had plenty of time to work out exactly what he did.
Suppose the main dot points are that FRA staff are allowed to get away with extremes of search and no set of genitals is too far, and it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to define exactly what the rules are as per the "German ministry of the interior".
I'm very dissappointed to say the least.
Dr G
Feb 12, 2009, 2:00 pm
#50
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,444
Feb 12, 2009, 3:12 pm
#51
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 898
Close to four weeks after the incident I received the following reply.
The problem I have is that they say that the search was done "exactly according to the official orders" but nobody is willing to tell me exactly what these orders are.
Some people say they must use the back of the hand, and given they way I was treated it must mean that the front of the hand complete with a full lifting of my penis and testicles are also acceptable.
I honestly find this hard to believe and given that the staff member also flatly denied his "cocktail" speech I really do feel that this person had had plenty of time to work out exactly what he did.
Suppose the main dot points are that FRA staff are allowed to get away with extremes of search and no set of genitals is too far, and it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to define exactly what the rules are as per the "German ministry of the interior".
I'm very dissappointed to say the least.
Dr G
The problem I have is that they say that the search was done "exactly according to the official orders" but nobody is willing to tell me exactly what these orders are.
Some people say they must use the back of the hand, and given they way I was treated it must mean that the front of the hand complete with a full lifting of my penis and testicles are also acceptable.
I honestly find this hard to believe and given that the staff member also flatly denied his "cocktail" speech I really do feel that this person had had plenty of time to work out exactly what he did.
Suppose the main dot points are that FRA staff are allowed to get away with extremes of search and no set of genitals is too far, and it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to define exactly what the rules are as per the "German ministry of the interior".
I'm very dissappointed to say the least.
Dr G
Dear....
Thank you very much for your notice dated on November 8th 2007. We deeply regret that you perceived the security checks at Frankfurt/ Main airport as so annoying.
The German Ministry of the Interior has laid down a special type of control. Its main purpose is to meet the highest possible degree of accuracy in terms of security standards. Patting down passengers with a metal-detecting wand and hand, checking hair, feet, shoes, the genital area and the thoracic regions constitutes now the standard procedure. It is in line with the more stringent security guidelines that emerged from the 9/11 events. This pattern of control is conducted with every passenger, no matter where he or she comes from and travels to.
Due to constructional conditions it is not possible to install a walk-through metal detector at the checkpoint you had to pass to get to your flight to Chicago. On the same account we cannot provide a separated cabin for passengers, who feel uneasy when being controlled in public.
The checkpoint at gate C1 is the only one in the design mentioned above at Frankfurt/ Main airport. All the other checkpoints are equipped with walk-through detectors and most of them are provided with a control cabin. But also at these standard-equipped checkpoints a manual control as you were subjected to can be necessary.
We can assure you that the design of the C1 checkpoint has not been set up to hassle our costumers - the constructional conditions do not allow an extended equipment. Of course, it is our intention to make the security checks as comfortable as possible.
We apologize many times for the inconvenience. However, we hope we would be pleased to have you again at our airport as a guest. Hopefully, you will find your next visit to our airport more to your satisfaction.
Sincerely yours,
Fraport AG
Thank you very much for your notice dated on November 8th 2007. We deeply regret that you perceived the security checks at Frankfurt/ Main airport as so annoying.
The German Ministry of the Interior has laid down a special type of control. Its main purpose is to meet the highest possible degree of accuracy in terms of security standards. Patting down passengers with a metal-detecting wand and hand, checking hair, feet, shoes, the genital area and the thoracic regions constitutes now the standard procedure. It is in line with the more stringent security guidelines that emerged from the 9/11 events. This pattern of control is conducted with every passenger, no matter where he or she comes from and travels to.
Due to constructional conditions it is not possible to install a walk-through metal detector at the checkpoint you had to pass to get to your flight to Chicago. On the same account we cannot provide a separated cabin for passengers, who feel uneasy when being controlled in public.
The checkpoint at gate C1 is the only one in the design mentioned above at Frankfurt/ Main airport. All the other checkpoints are equipped with walk-through detectors and most of them are provided with a control cabin. But also at these standard-equipped checkpoints a manual control as you were subjected to can be necessary.
We can assure you that the design of the C1 checkpoint has not been set up to hassle our costumers - the constructional conditions do not allow an extended equipment. Of course, it is our intention to make the security checks as comfortable as possible.
We apologize many times for the inconvenience. However, we hope we would be pleased to have you again at our airport as a guest. Hopefully, you will find your next visit to our airport more to your satisfaction.
Sincerely yours,
Fraport AG
Feb 12, 2009, 9:43 pm
#52
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin and Buggenhagen, Germany
Posts: 3,509
Dr. G and the other victim, I would not be satisfied with this answer. Do get a lawyer and do go to the media. It's outrageous and scandalous this should happen.
In the end it boils down to which is more important: the dignity of the human being or the safety of air travel from Frankfurt's terminal C1 to the USA.
"Die Wuerde des Menschen is unantastbar..." is part of the German Grundgesetz (our constitution). Ironically "unantastbar" means "cannot be touched".
It is clearly overstepping legal boundaries and decency boundaries. In addition, it is also "unverhaeltnissmaessig". That means that the intrusion is not in an appropriate or proportionate relation to the benefit of the action.
If there had been a definite bomb thread on this particular flight, it might be fathomable to ASK passengers to agree to this kind of procedure but not in ordinary day to day business.
Moreover, it is discriminating. Let's imagine this argument: they pass the wand over your genital area (without touching) and it does not alarm and then, on top of that, they lift your penis and grab your testicles, even though there was no alarm.
Now they do the same thing with a woman. They move the wand over her genital area and there is no alarm. For equal procedure and to guarantee the safety an agent would then have to conduct a cavity search on every woman's vagina. Equal treatment, right?
Wonder how long that would last...
Seriously, the arguments are on your side. File for sexual assault, insult, Noetigung (your lawyer will explain that) and discrimination. Also demand Akteneinsicht (you want to see all the files pertaining to your case) and that they give you this ominous rule in writing with an objectifiable reference and not just an unsubstantial letter where they tell you it's ok and you shouldn't worry. This is ludicrous. Maybe you can ask Rolf Bossi and consorts to take the case. He is one of the most reputed/infamous German lawyers, a celebrity.
I am deeply ashamed something like that would happen in my country and even worse to a non-German. Is that how we should treat our guests? Or is that a very bizarre way of making Americans feel the pain they put on the rest of the world? This sucks. Excuse my language, please.
In the end it boils down to which is more important: the dignity of the human being or the safety of air travel from Frankfurt's terminal C1 to the USA.
"Die Wuerde des Menschen is unantastbar..." is part of the German Grundgesetz (our constitution). Ironically "unantastbar" means "cannot be touched".
It is clearly overstepping legal boundaries and decency boundaries. In addition, it is also "unverhaeltnissmaessig". That means that the intrusion is not in an appropriate or proportionate relation to the benefit of the action.
If there had been a definite bomb thread on this particular flight, it might be fathomable to ASK passengers to agree to this kind of procedure but not in ordinary day to day business.
Moreover, it is discriminating. Let's imagine this argument: they pass the wand over your genital area (without touching) and it does not alarm and then, on top of that, they lift your penis and grab your testicles, even though there was no alarm.
Now they do the same thing with a woman. They move the wand over her genital area and there is no alarm. For equal procedure and to guarantee the safety an agent would then have to conduct a cavity search on every woman's vagina. Equal treatment, right?
Wonder how long that would last...
Seriously, the arguments are on your side. File for sexual assault, insult, Noetigung (your lawyer will explain that) and discrimination. Also demand Akteneinsicht (you want to see all the files pertaining to your case) and that they give you this ominous rule in writing with an objectifiable reference and not just an unsubstantial letter where they tell you it's ok and you shouldn't worry. This is ludicrous. Maybe you can ask Rolf Bossi and consorts to take the case. He is one of the most reputed/infamous German lawyers, a celebrity.
I am deeply ashamed something like that would happen in my country and even worse to a non-German. Is that how we should treat our guests? Or is that a very bizarre way of making Americans feel the pain they put on the rest of the world? This sucks. Excuse my language, please.
Feb 13, 2009, 11:38 pm
#53
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 92
Thankyou for your reply Tfar,
I agree that this feels like a cover job to me.
I get the feeling that they feel it is ok as I am a non german speaker and being away from the country I am unlikely to follow this up.
I am in two minds as what to do as I really don't know where to start.
If they were at least able to define what the correct procedure was I would know if what happened was assault or not.
Any suggestions as to who to contact first in Germany?
Dr G
I agree that this feels like a cover job to me.
I get the feeling that they feel it is ok as I am a non german speaker and being away from the country I am unlikely to follow this up.
I am in two minds as what to do as I really don't know where to start.
If they were at least able to define what the correct procedure was I would know if what happened was assault or not.
Any suggestions as to who to contact first in Germany?
Dr G
Feb 14, 2009, 5:06 pm
#54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin and Buggenhagen, Germany
Posts: 3,509
Dr. G.,
I asked my mother who is a lawyer. She agrees that this is scandalous. She also says in her opinion this is certainly not standard procedure. She presumes that this is an individual with a "psychological problem" (mildly put) and that this wasn't the first time for him to do something like that. In this sense, she said, you did exactly the right thing to complain in writing because now something is on file and if another complaint comes in about this employee things will be followed up.
In a lawsuit there might be a problem of he-say/she-say in that the specific screener could say he never did touch you this way. However, it looks like in your case the way he touched you was never disputed (just the cocktail thing). So this is good.
My mother agreed that there are certainly written rules that exactly describe the standard operating procedure for padding down a passenger. These rules in German are called "Verfahrensvorschriften" = prescribed procedures.
She says that we don't have a sexual harassment law on the books, so all you can shoot for is "insult". I asked her to double check if there isn't anything higher and what could be done on the discrimination and civil rights side. She was busy, though, so she said she'd look into that and let me know.
If you do want to escalate you have to do what we call "Anzeige erstatten". This means you go to the DA (prosecutor) and tell them what happened and that you want the matter to be pursued in court. The DA will then decide if it's worth pursuing. In your case I bet it would be worth it because a. you already have a written response from escalating the case b. that response is hardly acceptable and c. this response does not deny that he touched you.
You need to contact the "Staatsanwaltschaft am Amtsgericht Frankfurt". Here is the website with address:
http://www.sta-frankfurt.justiz.hessen.de/
This is the DA with the local court in Frankfurt. You might even just write them a letter (on paper) describing the incident, giving all the detail, including copies of all previous correspondence, telling them that you want to press charges (Anzeige erstatten) and asking them what to do. In addition you have to do what is called "Strafantrag stellen". This is necessary when you press charges in an insult case. In the subject line write "Strafanzeige und Strafantrag wegen Beleidigung". An insult lawsuit can only be directed against a specific individual person not against an organization. There are possibly additional possibilities like "Amtsmissbrauch" (abuse of the power given to you by your office) and Koerperverletzung (assault) if you can claim that you have endured lasting psychological damage. At first there should be no costs for you and you do not need a lawyer to represent you.
There are also two big newspapers and one magazine that might be interested in your story. The two best newspapers with national reputation are "Die Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" and the "Suddeutsche Zeitung (Munich)". They are comparable to the NYT and WP. The magazine is "Der Spiegel". They are really into investigative journalism and civil rights. For maximum exposure you could also contact the tabloid "Bild Zeitung".
Additionally, you can direct a "Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde" to the "Vorstand" (the executive) of the entity who wrote the response letter. This is an official complaint against the person who did this to you and about the incident in general. Showing that you have done that shows the prosecutor that you mean business. I would also insist on seeing a copy of the rules of which they speak from the Ministry of the Interior (Innenministerium).
Till
I asked my mother who is a lawyer. She agrees that this is scandalous. She also says in her opinion this is certainly not standard procedure. She presumes that this is an individual with a "psychological problem" (mildly put) and that this wasn't the first time for him to do something like that. In this sense, she said, you did exactly the right thing to complain in writing because now something is on file and if another complaint comes in about this employee things will be followed up.
In a lawsuit there might be a problem of he-say/she-say in that the specific screener could say he never did touch you this way. However, it looks like in your case the way he touched you was never disputed (just the cocktail thing). So this is good.
My mother agreed that there are certainly written rules that exactly describe the standard operating procedure for padding down a passenger. These rules in German are called "Verfahrensvorschriften" = prescribed procedures.
She says that we don't have a sexual harassment law on the books, so all you can shoot for is "insult". I asked her to double check if there isn't anything higher and what could be done on the discrimination and civil rights side. She was busy, though, so she said she'd look into that and let me know.
If you do want to escalate you have to do what we call "Anzeige erstatten". This means you go to the DA (prosecutor) and tell them what happened and that you want the matter to be pursued in court. The DA will then decide if it's worth pursuing. In your case I bet it would be worth it because a. you already have a written response from escalating the case b. that response is hardly acceptable and c. this response does not deny that he touched you.
You need to contact the "Staatsanwaltschaft am Amtsgericht Frankfurt". Here is the website with address:
http://www.sta-frankfurt.justiz.hessen.de/
This is the DA with the local court in Frankfurt. You might even just write them a letter (on paper) describing the incident, giving all the detail, including copies of all previous correspondence, telling them that you want to press charges (Anzeige erstatten) and asking them what to do. In addition you have to do what is called "Strafantrag stellen". This is necessary when you press charges in an insult case. In the subject line write "Strafanzeige und Strafantrag wegen Beleidigung". An insult lawsuit can only be directed against a specific individual person not against an organization. There are possibly additional possibilities like "Amtsmissbrauch" (abuse of the power given to you by your office) and Koerperverletzung (assault) if you can claim that you have endured lasting psychological damage. At first there should be no costs for you and you do not need a lawyer to represent you.
There are also two big newspapers and one magazine that might be interested in your story. The two best newspapers with national reputation are "Die Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" and the "Suddeutsche Zeitung (Munich)". They are comparable to the NYT and WP. The magazine is "Der Spiegel". They are really into investigative journalism and civil rights. For maximum exposure you could also contact the tabloid "Bild Zeitung".
Additionally, you can direct a "Dienstaufsichtsbeschwerde" to the "Vorstand" (the executive) of the entity who wrote the response letter. This is an official complaint against the person who did this to you and about the incident in general. Showing that you have done that shows the prosecutor that you mean business. I would also insist on seeing a copy of the rules of which they speak from the Ministry of the Interior (Innenministerium).
Till
Jun 8, 2009, 7:14 am
#56
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
Its not that you are forcing them to "cup" other people, exactly. It is more of a general negative influence. The TSA probably asks for better enforcement of all sorts of things to the foreign security people, and these people like to follow rules to a T (you know those Germans...), and do a full body pat when told to do a pat down. The truth is no one should be patting anyone first because it invades personal space and second because it is ineffective (anyone who wants to take something on their body need only to use their body cavities). Use metal and trace chemical detectors. Period.
Also, I don't think cupping someone's private parts is any less acceptable than looking under people's clothing while hiding away in an "undisclosed" location, currently standard operation for MMW scans.
The TSA policies are a poor worldwide influence. You are responsible for the largest air traffic and should set a good example.
Also, I don't think cupping someone's private parts is any less acceptable than looking under people's clothing while hiding away in an "undisclosed" location, currently standard operation for MMW scans.
The TSA policies are a poor worldwide influence. You are responsible for the largest air traffic and should set a good example.
Being a woman does not make it any easier. The question is, are there any European Union, IATA or whatever regulations that would allow to make complaints that would be heard? When I objected to hand being put in my pants I was subject to even more unpleasant treatment, which I will not describe out of concern for sensitive readers.
Does anyone know how to stop it?
Jun 8, 2009, 7:47 am
#57
Suspended
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Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I have been through few airports and what is happening in Frankfurt is exceptional. Although some of security guards try to be civil, most rude, obviously incompetent, badly trained and on a power trip. Everybody seems to forget that those so unpleasantly abused measures supposed to protect us, the airline passengers. Instead one talks about this nebulous "state" security. State are us and we don't like it!
Being a woman does not make it any easier. The question is, are there any European Union, IATA or whatever regulations that would allow to make complaints that would be heard? When I objected to hand being put in my pants I was subject to even more unpleasant treatment, which I will not describe out of concern for sensitive readers.
Does anyone know how to stop it?
Being a woman does not make it any easier. The question is, are there any European Union, IATA or whatever regulations that would allow to make complaints that would be heard? When I objected to hand being put in my pants I was subject to even more unpleasant treatment, which I will not describe out of concern for sensitive readers.
Does anyone know how to stop it?
Jun 8, 2009, 3:28 pm
#59
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin and Buggenhagen, Germany
Posts: 3,509
I have been through few airports and what is happening in Frankfurt is exceptional. Although some of security guards try to be civil, most rude, obviously incompetent, badly trained and on a power trip. Everybody seems to forget that those so unpleasantly abused measures supposed to protect us, the airline passengers. Instead one talks about this nebulous "state" security. State are us and we don't like it!
Being a woman does not make it any easier. The question is, are there any European Union, IATA or whatever regulations that would allow to make complaints that would be heard? When I objected to hand being put in my pants I was subject to even more unpleasant treatment, which I will not describe out of concern for sensitive readers.
Does anyone know how to stop it?
Being a woman does not make it any easier. The question is, are there any European Union, IATA or whatever regulations that would allow to make complaints that would be heard? When I objected to hand being put in my pants I was subject to even more unpleasant treatment, which I will not describe out of concern for sensitive readers.
Does anyone know how to stop it?
1. Is this standard operating procedure?
2. If so, where is it written?
3. Even if it is written, is it in sync with the constitution and other laws?
4. If all of these are answered in favor of the state, then the last question is whether it is applied unequivocally to all passengers (kids, women, elderly, disabled) or whether a discriminating pattern can be discerned.
5. If all these are still against the poor pax (the chances are low that you don't hit a nail with any of the above), one can argue that the method itself is inefficient. An inefficient method that costs money and raises legal concerns should be abandoned.
ad 1) I doubt this is SOP. If it were SOP, it would be used at all German airports. I regularly fly out of Berlin Tegel. They never even touch me. Wand and x-ray for luggage is all. First strike.
ad 2) Since this is most likely not a prescribed procedure it opens up the way not only for civil law suits against the state or the security company but also for personal law suits against the human being who touches you without a professional warrant. Strike 2.
ad 3) This is the point where one can easily escalate the situation to the supreme court and one should. In the German system you will incur basically no costs for this.
ad 4) This is most likely not applied to all passengers. I would really be surprised if a screener had the guts to finger the genitals of a little girl or boy for example. Pedophile Ring Among FRA Screeners Busted! That is one hell of a headline. Strike 3.
ad 5) This is finally a political question and with enough ado and input from the people some change might come. Problem is that Germans are somewhat lethargic in that area.
TPA, where did this unfortunate experience happen to you? Was it at FRA? Do you think the extra thorough screening you got was a retaliatory measure? Was there anything that could give them probable cause. I think they cannot arbitrarily order strip downs or body cavity searches without a really good reason, but I am not sure on that point.
Till
Oct 2, 2009, 10:41 am
#60
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I have been through FRA 8 times in the past year (all international to international connections, with 4 U.S.-bound flights) and never been frisked. Of course, I never set off the metal detector. 
I don't think FRA is any worse on average than others. Both LOS and CUN are far worse. LOS has mandatory gate rape for all international departures plus additional hand search of carry-on luggage at gate. CUN permits people to purchase liquids after security and then confiscates them during gate checks (though inconsistent and apparently random).
I don't think FRA is any worse on average than others. Both LOS and CUN are far worse. LOS has mandatory gate rape for all international departures plus additional hand search of carry-on luggage at gate. CUN permits people to purchase liquids after security and then confiscates them during gate checks (though inconsistent and apparently random).