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Old Dec 17, 07, 12:04 am   #16
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
At least it's not a full scope colonoscopy.
Yet.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 12:20 am   #17
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Yet.
In the interest of "anything for security" and "better safe than sorry", we volunteer that crowd first.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 10:11 am   #18
 
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Originally Posted by LEX-LGA Commuter View Post
Got it. As is an Interstate highway. And Lord knows, if you get pulled over or are involved in accident there, the state troopers never "run your license", right?
Traffic stops are predicated on reasonable suspicion or probable cause of violations of law. As these are now classified as "Terry" stops, the LEO has lawful access to your information using the various NCIC and locality wants/warrants check procedures.

I agree with some others on this board, using the Airlines/Airports as a dragnet violates due process. The mere act of purchasing a ticket to fly on a domestic airline does not grant reasonable suspicion or probable cause to perform an NCIC or locality check on any individual.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 10:28 am   #19
 
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And as far as my own background is concerned, take your best shot.
Clearly, you didn't bother to read the "nothing to hide" fallacy paper I suggested. The root of the fallacy is that privacy is about concealing wrongdoing.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 10:31 am   #20
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
In the interest of "anything for security" and "better safe than sorry", we volunteer that crowd first.
As they're willing to take it in the shorts for security, I say let them.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 10:39 am   #21
 
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I agree with some others on this board, using the Airlines/Airports as a dragnet violates due process. The mere act of purchasing a ticket to fly on a domestic airline does not grant reasonable suspicion or probable cause to perform an NCIC or locality check on any individual.
Then please explain why law enforcement agencies routinely track credit/debit card usage as a means to find criminals. There is nothing illegal about buying dinner, groceries, whatever, either.

Why is an airport apparently scared ground, but a restaurant is not? Better still, what about an ATM machine? Hell, it's their money from their bank.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 11:00 am   #22
 
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Originally Posted by LEX-LGA Commuter View Post
Then please explain why law enforcement agencies routinely track credit/debit card usage as a means to find criminals. There is nothing illegal about buying dinner, groceries, whatever, either.

Why is an airport apparently scared ground, but a restaurant is not? Better still, what about an ATM machine? Hell, it's their money from their bank.

My reply was limited to a response concerning domestic airline travel and airline/airport activities in relation to warrant checks being performed. How you take that from an airport being sacred to a restaurant not being in the same category is beyond me.

IMO, warrantless searches of credit/debit card usage is a violation of the 4th Amendment, regardless of location. My mere presence in the world, or use of a credit card for purchases, does not grant the authority for a LEO to perform an NCIC check without the presence of a warrant.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 11:14 am   #23
 
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Originally Posted by jk5598224 View Post
This question is only related to domestic only travel with lower 48.

Is our the government, big brother and/or airlines now checking that DHS consolidated database for Criminal Background checks/warrant checks, immigration violations etc...

Meaning if someone flew on a short domestic flight he/she could be arrested for a outstanding warrant or immigration violation.

If it is not happening yet, I bet its only a matter of time.... No civil rights left in US.
As an industry person with the knowledge, I can advise you that airlines currently do not have the ability to do what you advise. I can also tell you that in most cases, carriers WILL NOT give out passenger information without a warrant, as that is the policy. However, please note that LEO's with very good people skills and agents with a thing for LEO's could find themselves in a grey area here.
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Old Dec 17, 07, 8:46 pm   #24
 
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I'll see your TS/SCI and raise you a full scope poly with additional compartments.

Ok, I fold...and I really wanted a good cup of coffee! I did the poly once for No Such Agency and it wasn't a pleasant experience. I could swear the examiner had one of the lead roles in "Revenge of the Nerds." He flipped out because I admitted to forging a grade in 6th grade (a "c" to a "b", my first bad grade, mind you...and, yes, I did pay the price since I was grounded from basically all life for the next three months). He said something to the effect, "Walker did that!"

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Old Dec 17, 07, 8:57 pm   #25
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Ok, I fold...and I really wanted a good cup of coffee! I did the poly once for No Such Agency and it wasn't a pleasant experience. I could swear the examiner had one of the lead roles in "Revenge of the Nerds." He flipped out because I admitted to forging a grade in 6th grade (a "c" to a "b", my first bad grade, mind you...and, yes, I did pay the price since I was grounded from basically all life for the next three months). He said something to the effect, "Walker did that!"

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Some of those guys can be brutal. I know someone that was grilled 5 times ... hard. Others aren't too bad to work with. I'm not looking forward to re-upping though.
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Old Dec 18, 07, 12:17 pm   #26
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Do you truly believe that someone with outstanding warrants would put themselves in a position (like applying for a job for instance) that would require a background check? That aside, the message you are sending then is that airports are some kid of "safety zone"? A felon need only get to CVG and shout "all in free" or something? Sorry, I don't want him on my flight, he's all yours.
Why limit it to airplanes? Do you want deadbeat dads walking down the street or going to the supermarket? Shouldn't we make everyone go through some kind of check as often as possible? Can't be too safe...

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Why is an airport apparently scared ground, but a restaurant is not? Better still, what about an ATM machine? Hell, it's their money from their bank.
Agreed! More places where we can put mandatory background checks! We can pass a law whereby to use an ATM you must enter an escape-proof box. If when you submit your realID card and fingerprints you are found to be suspicious, it locks up and you're detained until the police can come to arrest you.
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Old Dec 18, 07, 4:01 pm   #27
 
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Since some of you can't seem to get past sarcasm and idiotic comments, I guess I'm done. But I'll leave you with this thought. Who exactly are these people you are so bound to coddle and protect? Deadbeat dads? Maybe. Wanted felons? Probably. At the very least they all have warrants or are here illegally, according to the premise here. So, do you truly believe that they are living in mainstream society and, for example, paying taxes every year? Or instead, are they costing each of us some sum of money due to lost tax revenue, increased law enforcement workload, etc.

So why you want to kiss their collective asses is beyond me, frankly. But it's a free country - have at it.
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Old Dec 18, 07, 5:49 pm   #28
 
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Since some of you can't seem to get past sarcasm and idiotic comments, I guess I'm done. But I'll leave you with this thought. Who exactly are these people you are so bound to coddle and protect? Deadbeat dads? Maybe. Wanted felons? Probably. At the very least they all have warrants or are here illegally, according to the premise here. So, do you truly believe that they are living in mainstream society and, for example, paying taxes every year? Or instead, are they costing each of us some sum of money due to lost tax revenue, increased law enforcement workload, etc.

So why you want to kiss their collective asses is beyond me, frankly. But it's a free country - have at it.
Many of those people are the dregs of the earth, but those are not who I am trying to protect in the situation posited. I am trying to protect the innocent ones, the rule of law and our constitution. Somewhat analogous to the saying that, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Old Dec 18, 07, 10:26 pm   #29
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Many of those people are the dregs of the earth, but those are not who I am trying to protect in the situation posited. I am trying to protect the innocent ones, the rule of law and our constitution. Somewhat analogous to the saying that, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Exactly. I want these people off the street just as much as the next guy. I just want them to do it within the framework of the law and constitution. Fishing expeditions aren't.

They need to do it the right way.
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Old Dec 19, 07, 6:02 pm   #30
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So why you want to kiss their collective asses is beyond me, frankly. But it's a free country - have at it.
Those asses -- the dregs of society, as ND Sol opined -- still have a right to due process in this country, last I checked. Criminal dragnets should not come at the expense of the principle of presumption of innocence.
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Last edited by essxjay; Dec 19, 07 at 7:27 pm.
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