Go Back   > > >
View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with the action undertaken by MKEbound?
Agree 766 75.92%
Disagree 144 14.27%
Neither agree nor disagree 75 7.43%
Not sure 24 2.38%
Voters: 1009. You may not vote on this poll

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:02 pm   #751
Original Member, Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, OMNI, OMNI/PR, and OMNI/Games
  
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 15,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakebeth
cubbandit - I'd encourage you to rethink your point. Pulling a fire alarm is so drastically different. A few bullets:
Oooh, don't say bullets!!



Just a general and very warm welcome to all the many newcomers to our little corner of the Internet that we call home -- Flyertalk. Whether you've already decloaked or are still lurking, please have a good look around, poke through some threads and jump in anytime ... the water's just fine! There is LOTS of barking in here, but we try to keep the sharks at bay (no personal attacks on fellow FTers).

Remember, think before you post and feel free to ping us mods if you feel someone's gone over the line (use the Report Bad Post icon in the lower left corner of the offending post) or send us a PM if you have any questions.

Carry on!

----------
essxjay
Travel Safety/Security moderator
essxjay is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:02 pm   #752
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Greater DC
Programs: UA plus
Posts: 12,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedith94
Most of you sound like Democrats. Lay down and do nothing to protect ourselves, do not profile because it might hurt someones feelings, even though that profiled person might be the one to blow up the plane. Why is it you care more about hurting a persons feelings than protecting innocent life? Wake up people, we are in a war with the enemy on our shores. Lets protect the people of our country and worry about feelings when it is over.
If you do not like the way things are here, then leave and live in Iraq or Iran or some other foreign country. But for the love of God, protect us first.
Will you still feel that way when YOU fit the profile they are after, even though you are just trying to go through your normal day to day life? There is no good end to this downward spiral once it gains enough momentum

Also as others have noted - what we're going through is not "security" it's a show and not a particularly effective one. If you want security, then all that money TSA has spent should have been on machines that could check the contents of liquids and gels - this threat has been around a LONG time, it is NOT new (Japan has it today). If you want security, then ANY and ALL the freight on the plane should be checked - remember that's how the ValuJet plane came down in Florida (and it had everything to do with safety & security and nothing to do with 'terrorism'). If you want security, then people trained to identify valid and fake id's should be verifying your identity at the checkpoint, not subcontractors who have just finished an ESL course. If you want security, then the rules shouldn't be written to encourage the general population to go against them (do you really think there was no lotion or liquid on those planes you've been on for the three week total ban). If you want real security, then put real security officers in place at checkpoints, not minimum wage folks who couldn't find a better position. If you want real security ....

If you think security requires you to remove your shoes to walk over a filthy, germ ridden floor OR risk dehydration while you travel OR risk losing your medication or special food (diabetics, those with dietary restrictions, etc) to a TSA on a power trip who doesn't know the rules, then you just don't have a clue.

Tell me - and think hard on this one - if you had a problem at a TSA station, do you actually feel comfortable speaking up against their action or would you just take it meekly and walk away your tail between the legs? If it's the latter, ask yourself why and what level of intimidation is currently at play by our government, especially with HS and TSA.
GoingAway is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:05 pm   #753
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: FLL/YYZ/TPE
Programs: CO Platinum 1K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite, Platinum TSA Hater
Posts: 30,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedith94
Most of you sound like Democrats. Lay down and do nothing to protect ourselves, do not profile because it might hurt someones feelings, even though that profiled person might be the one to blow up the plane. Why is it you care more about hurting a persons feelings than protecting innocent life? Wake up people, we are in a war with the enemy on our shores. Lets protect the people of our country and worry about feelings when it is over.
If you do not like the way things are here, then leave and live in Iraq or Iran or some other foreign country. But for the love of God, protect us first.
Welcome to Flyertalk Well firstly, we're not at war...except the one in Iraq that we started. Secondly, there is no enemy on our shores...but the dramatic prose was quite eloquent. We have a global safety and security challenge, but not a war. Let's not over-exaggerate the problem.

We don't profile people based on race in the United States because firstly, it goes against our values and beliefs as a Nation. Perhaps not yours, but that's ok. Secondly, we don't do it because it doesn't work. Terrorists come in every age, race, color, religion and sex. Pulling over all "them Muslim lookin' varmints o'er thar" will only allow the caucasian Christian teenager to complete her mission that much easier. Sounds like you forgot about Oklahoma City and the various abortion clininc bombings that were all committed by some very white Christian looking people. I don't recall reading about a hue and cry to start profiling white Christian looking people within a 3 mile radius of abortion clinics and government buildings.

As someone with a fair shake of credentials in this industry, I wrote about airport security challenges years ago, and years later along with my professor, watched as the TSA did just about everything wrong. Although we weren't shocked. Would it surprise you that air cargo and mail undergoes no security screening whatsoever? Does that help you feel safer knowing that someone could easily plant a bomb on your flight by shipping it and the TSA isn't the slightest bit interested in knowing if any of the boxes being loaded on your flight or mine contain a bomb? But they are certainly interested in knowing whether my tube of Colgate Total is 3oz or 7oz, and whether it's in a regulation size approved ziptop baggie. Apparently they are also more interested in what I write on the baggy.

Protecting our people is not done by sacrificing our freedoms, liberty or rights. We don't hand the government a blank check to "protect us, save us" in some kind of weird political worship session at the expense of traditions that millions fought and died to establish and protect. Or perhaps like some, you feel that our Founding Fathers and their followers acted out of line and should have just shut their mouths and done whatever King George told them to do, so everyone in Colonial America could be safe.

For the record, I'm a combination of old school Republican (think T. Roosevelt) and civil libertarian. I'm not a Democrat, and I'm certainly not a RovianRepublican.
bocastephen is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:05 pm   #754
Original Poster
  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: BDL
Programs: NWA Platinum, HHonors Diamond, SPG, YX, AA
Posts: 5,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
Free speech has a lot to do with people thinking they are more important than someone else. It's all connected. No one ever sees the big picture. Think about it. What response was expected when that baggie went through the security checkpoint? Most likely, the exact response that was recieved. It was another ploy to complain about something else in the United States and have it show up in the news. There you go, free speech, publicized free speech. Instead of complaining or pointing out flaws in the system, how about suggesting alternative ways to go about the airplane security.

Calling someone an idiot can be considered a threat nowadays. Look at our schools and streets. One teenager can call another teen an idiot and be killed shortly after. Same thing applies to terrorists except in some cases, the terrorists are even more immature than the teens.
Welcome to Flyertalk! I know this tread has gotten quite long, but if you go all the way back to post #157 you read the complaint that I submitted to the TSA though their website. I did suggest alternative ways to improve security, trust me I fly over 140 flights a year - I'm all for real, common sense security.
MKEbound is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:06 pm   #755
  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona
Programs: *wood Gold, Marriott Gold, DL Silver, Hilton Silver, F9 Ascent
Posts: 2,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by exerda
We do not complain about airport security measures because they are merely inconvenient, but rather that in addition to being largely ineffective and providing merely an illusion of security (and diverting attention from realistic threats that should be addressed), they are inconvenient.

Inconvenience that actually addresses a security threat in a meaningful way and that is the best solution to solving that threat would be grumbled about, perhaps, but accepted. The problem that most people have with the TSA--from being SSSSelected to the Shoe Carnival to the water ban to the new plastic bag circus--is that the measures simply do not do anything but reassure the nervous nellies out there that they are somehow safer.
Well said!

WRT the emphazied areas, this is how I explain it to my relatives who are THE definition of Nervous Nellies but they just don't get it. They were nervous to fly to begin with and ever since 9/11, most of them just refuse to fly at all! They'd rather take the train or a bus and even those modes of transportation have them put off ever since the Madrid train bombings. And now, in light of the UK "liquid bomb" incident, they will pretty much only drive...but they are 4 states away. So now they pretty much just sit at home and won't come visit because they're afraid of (a) being attacked and (b) the tough airport security.
jonesing is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:14 pm   #756
  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Washington DC USA
Posts: 2,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
Free speech has a lot to do with people thinking they are more important than someone else. It's all connected. No one ever sees the big picture. Think about it. What response was expected when that baggie went through the security checkpoint? Most likely, the exact response that was recieved.
I must have missed the part in the first amendment about how free speech is only allowed when you don't expect a response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
It was another ploy to complain about something else in the United States and have it show up in the news. There you go, free speech, publicized free speech. Instead of complaining or pointing out flaws in the system, how about suggesting alternative ways to go about the airplane security.
Sort of like how Rosa Parks should have gently suggested to the bus driver that maybe black and white passengers should be able to sit together? Then we'd get a whole 'nother litany of complaints about how the poor, uneducated, hard working bus driver/TSA agent/whoever shouldn't have to listen to this. Makes a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
Calling someone an idiot can be considered a threat nowadays. Look at our schools and streets. One teenager can call another teen an idiot and be killed shortly after. Same thing applies to terrorists except in some cases, the terrorists are even more immature than the teens.
Personally, I think that when we start allowing, or expecting, our government officials and police to act like uncivilized teenagers, we are truly pathetic.

Besides, if
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
Calling someone an idiot can be considered a threat nowadays
, then it seems possible that
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerchick
suggesting alternative ways to go about the airplane security.
could be too. What do you suggest we do THEN?
crhptic is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:14 pm   #757
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,574
Here's what I'm gonna write on my baggie:

"Chertoff and Hawley are both idiots and their infantile "security" solutions to real security concerns are laughable. And if you're dumb enough to think this is an actionable threat, then you're too dumb or emotional to work for the TSA or to be carrying a gun as a peace officer. If you interpret the words on this baggie to be a threat, then do us all a favor and resign. Immediately, Idiot."
FWAAA is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:14 pm   #758
  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryfrye
It would be even better if someone created a T-Shirt and told it at the FT Store.

Fryfrye
Speaking of shirts...I saw the most fabulous one recently and think I'll order it and wear it the next time I travel in November. It said:

I went hunting with Dick Cheney and all I got was this lousy tee shirt.

The shirt appears to be full of little holes from bird shot. It's very funny...but I wonder what the TSA would think? Hmmmmm
VADemocrat is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:16 pm   #759
  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Sunshine State
Programs: Deltaworst Peon Level, TSA "Layer 21 Club", NW WP RIP
Posts: 5,060
Thumbs Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingAway
If you think security requires you to remove your shoes to walk over a filthy, germ ridden floor OR risk dehydration while you travel OR risk losing your medication or special food (diabetics, those with dietary restrictions, etc) to a TSA on a power trip who doesn't know the rules, then you just don't have a clue.
(eight TSA thumbs up, one for each opening when the cavity searches begin )

To all new readers coming here because of the CNN or AP stories: welcome.

Read the above GoingAway quote again, slowly. It explains, in one beautiful sentence, the essence of that is going on and why so many here feel the way we do.
Flaflyer is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:23 pm   #760
  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: EWR
Programs: United Mileage Plus, Marriott Rewards Silver, HHonors, Alaska Airlines
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiff
Kip Hawley is an Idiot and people should be able to proclaim that any time, any place they want to.
Not entirely. In fact, Kip Hawley may have a case for libel against the OP. As matter of fact, the OP has great case for libel against me, based on some of my earlier posts.
JohnneeO is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:26 pm   #761
  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CVG
Programs: SQ PPS, DL Gold Medallion
Posts: 2,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaflyer
To all new readers coming here because of the CNN or AP stories: welcome.

Read the above GoingAway quote again, slowly. It explains, in one beautiful sentence, the essence of that is going on and why so many here feel the way we do.

To that helpful quote for newbies by GoingAway, I would add this one from bocastephen:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocastephen
As someone with a fair shake of credentials in this industry, I wrote about airport security challenges years ago, and years later along with my professor, watched as the TSA did just about everything wrong. Although we weren't shocked. Would it surprise you that air cargo and mail undergoes no security screening whatsoever? Does that help you feel safer knowing that someone could easily plant a bomb on your flight by shipping it and the TSA isn't the slightest bit interested in knowing if any of the boxes being loaded on your flight or mine contain a bomb? But they are certainly interested in knowing whether my tube of Colgate Total is 3oz or 7oz, and whether it's in a regulation size approved ziptop baggie. Apparently they are also more interested in what I write on the baggy.
MovieMan is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:31 pm   #762
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Between DCA and IAD
Programs: UA 1K; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 42,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnneeO
Not entirely. In fact, Kip Hawley may have a case for libel against the OP. As matter of fact, the OP has great case for libel against me, based on some of my earlier posts.
Kip Hawley, as a public figure, is legally expected to be exposed to criticism and ridicule. Libel, as I understand it, would not apply in this case.
exerda is online now  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:31 pm   #763
  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CVG
Programs: SQ PPS, DL Gold Medallion
Posts: 2,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by exerda
Kip Hawley, as a public figure, is legally expected to be exposed to criticism and ridicule. Libel, as I understand it, would not apply in this case.
Besides, it's not libel if it's a patently true statement, is it?
MovieMan is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:32 pm   #764
  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: EWR
Programs: United Mileage Plus, Marriott Rewards Silver, HHonors, Alaska Airlines
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessO2
The OP just happened to cross paths with a TSAer who got his/her ego bruised because there is nothing in the books about expressing a viewpoint. The situation got even more toxic by the TSA supervisor who decided to show the passenger who was boss and crossing the line.
The TSA Agent(s) who originally screened the bag only called over the supervisor, which is a reasonable action, and I do not think they are at fault. It was solely the supervisor who escalated the situation.

I disagree with everything the supervisor did, but by that point it was out of the OP's control. Now he/she was in danger of all sorts of mistreatments by overzelaous TSA Agents and LEO's. Not what he/she expected, I am sure.
JohnneeO is offline  
Old Sep 29, 06, 12:33 pm   #765
  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: IND (via Bloomington)
Programs: NW Plat, Marriott Plat, PC Plat, HH Gold, US Gold
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnneeO
Not entirely. In fact, Kip Hawley may have a case for libel against the OP. As matter of fact, the OP has great case for libel against me, based on some of my earlier posts.
It's my understanding (and I'm not a lawyer) that Kip Hawley is a public figure, thus can't sue for libel or slander. He's a political appointee, not a GSer.

jon
fiedler77 is offline  
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Closed Thread
Thread Tools
Search Thread
Go to Top
Forum Jump
Contact Us - FlyerTalk - Archive - Top