View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with the action undertaken by MKEbound?
Agree
766
75.92%
Disagree
144
14.27%
Neither agree nor disagree
75
7.43%
Not sure
24
2.38%
Voters: 1009. You may not vote on this poll
I was detained at the TSA checkpoint for about 25 minutes today
Jan 9, 2008, 12:47 pm
#2011
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Suburban Philadelphia
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG Gold
Posts: 3,392
Oh really? I can guarantee you that I can go to almost any airline and ship something directly. As a matter of fact, here is a direct link to one such airline I've considered - Alaska. While their freighter-only service is exempt from TSA requirements, shipments by individuals are to be made by 'known shippers'. How does one become a "known shipper" you ask? Easy. Fill out and submit this form: http://alaskacargo.custhelp.com/cgi-...015567&p_olh=0
When the form is completed, they do a quick check and voila - you get a customer ID number (mainly for billing) and you're listed with Alaska as a 'known shipper'. What are the chances a 'known shipper' could be planning something nefarious? A reasonably intelligent person would agree this process is full empty BS. By the way - what is the official definition of a known shipper?
Known Shippers are businesses or individuals that ship their own products weighing 16 ounces or more.
So, an individual, small business or large corporation could apply (easily) to be a known shipper. What a great security measure this is
The designation is most certainly not restricted to large businesses or specialists, as you claim.
Wrong again. Anyone can apply to be a known shipper, therefore anyone can use DASH or any of Delta's cargo services - or the services of any other airline.
Ummm sure. I've met plenty of these transport drivers and a basic background check means nothing. Actually, they do not need a background check - there is no requirement (enforceable) which states a package must be physically received from a known shipper, only 'shipped by' that known shipper. What does this mean? HP/Compaq uses 'just in time' courier drivers to pick up and deliver these time-critical packages - these are the same people who would pick up a package and deliver it across town for me. Nothing special.
Ahhh now we get to the meat of your complaint - WE are interfering with YOUR business by demanding all packages loaded on board passenger aircraft be screened for the presence of explosives and other dangerous materials. This is a burden on your business, so you don't want it and want us to buy into the argument that the status quo is perfectly safe. Do you have a cousin named Kip?
When the form is completed, they do a quick check and voila - you get a customer ID number (mainly for billing) and you're listed with Alaska as a 'known shipper'. What are the chances a 'known shipper' could be planning something nefarious? A reasonably intelligent person would agree this process is full empty BS. By the way - what is the official definition of a known shipper?
Known Shippers are businesses or individuals that ship their own products weighing 16 ounces or more.
So, an individual, small business or large corporation could apply (easily) to be a known shipper. What a great security measure this is
The designation is most certainly not restricted to large businesses or specialists, as you claim.Wrong again. Anyone can apply to be a known shipper, therefore anyone can use DASH or any of Delta's cargo services - or the services of any other airline.
Ummm sure. I've met plenty of these transport drivers and a basic background check means nothing. Actually, they do not need a background check - there is no requirement (enforceable) which states a package must be physically received from a known shipper, only 'shipped by' that known shipper. What does this mean? HP/Compaq uses 'just in time' courier drivers to pick up and deliver these time-critical packages - these are the same people who would pick up a package and deliver it across town for me. Nothing special.
Ahhh now we get to the meat of your complaint - WE are interfering with YOUR business by demanding all packages loaded on board passenger aircraft be screened for the presence of explosives and other dangerous materials. This is a burden on your business, so you don't want it and want us to buy into the argument that the status quo is perfectly safe. Do you have a cousin named Kip?
By "our" companies, by the way, I meant USA companies. Not companies in our industry. I was referring to any company in the USA that exports goods to another country...hence my comment regarding "we already have enough of a trade deficit in this country." So your argument regarding my motives is completely incorrect.
Being as you, and 95% of other Americans have no idea what the "status quo" exactly is, how would you know if it were safe or not?
As far as as drivers, known shippers, etc.....at all points in the transport process, cargo is escorted by someone (be it warehouseman, trucker, etc.) who has undergone a TSA security background check. Get your facts straight.
As for my family status, no - nobody named Kip in my lineage thank you.
Jan 9, 2008, 12:48 pm
#2012
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHX
Programs: AS MVP, HH Diamond
Posts: 3,259
1. Individuals do not and can not put cargo on a passenger airplane. It's simply not legal. They are able to tender shipments to IATA-approved freight forwarders, who are under tight restriction as to whose freight they are abe to tender to passenger airlines and whose freight must fly on cargo-only aircraft. MIA is one of the leading airports in the country of all-cargo airlines, and I guarantee you that's what your 19 TV's are going on.
Jan 9, 2008, 1:02 pm
#2013
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Have you read the form? The background check takes 5 or 6 weeks to complete. In addition, they are quite vague about the ways in which they verify your information - intentionally so. Notice "depending on location, fees may apply."
Fees? Oh, I forgot. Terrorists don't pay fees. Vague about how they verify the information? What do they use, magic pixie dust? All they can go by is what (if anything) is in existing databases unless they suspect something specific and verify it manually.
By "our" companies, by the way, I meant USA companies. Not companies in our industry. I was referring to any company in the USA that exports goods to another country...hence my comment regarding "we already have enough of a trade deficit in this country." So your argument regarding my motives is completely incorrect.
Being as you, and 95% of other Americans have no idea what the "status quo" exactly is, how would you know if it were safe or not?
As far as as drivers, known shippers, etc.....at all points in the transport process, cargo is escorted by someone (be it warehouseman, trucker, etc.) who has undergone a TSA security background check. Get your facts straight.
Jan 9, 2008, 2:21 pm
#2014
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Suburban Philadelphia
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG Gold
Posts: 3,392
The application *could* take that long, but is usually done much faster - but who cares?? What does the length of the application process have to do with security? Is a terrorist organization going to announce "back the drawing board, boys! we can't wait this long for these people to finish our paperwork" Fees? Oh, I forgot. Terrorists don't pay fees. Vague about how they verify the information? What do they use, magic pixie dust? All they can go by is what (if anything) is in existing databases unless they suspect something specific and verify it manually.
The length of the application process speaks to its through nature. If you're asking what they use to verify information, then you dont' know and shouldn't comment on it.
How does an MRI scan of a box before shipping cause an undo burden on American industry?
Do you think that a company in Germany will pay to purchase American goods when the price to ship via the airlines has tripled because of these measures and delayed the delivery to them by days or weeks? No, they'll buy from somewhere else where they don't need troubled by such nonsense.
Oh really? How do you know how much I know? Actually no one here can prove what someone else knows or doesn't know or what they do for a living - it's an anonymous message board.You've already told me you don't know much, since you asked about the pixie dust, and below you stated that you needed to ask your warehouse guys to ask their drivers about security certifications. If you knew much of anything, you'd already know the answer.
Really? I took a few minutes and walked down to my server team - they are responsible for parts, shipments, etc. I asked if they knew our delivery drivers who handle the critical part shipments - and requested they find out if these people possess a TSA clearance or background check of any kind. I will post the answer after our next delivery, but I already know what it is.
Delivery people do not have the same requirements as shipment pickup drivers. Think about it - at the point of delivery, the cargo has already flown.
Fees? Oh, I forgot. Terrorists don't pay fees. Vague about how they verify the information? What do they use, magic pixie dust? All they can go by is what (if anything) is in existing databases unless they suspect something specific and verify it manually.The length of the application process speaks to its through nature. If you're asking what they use to verify information, then you dont' know and shouldn't comment on it.
How does an MRI scan of a box before shipping cause an undo burden on American industry?
Do you think that a company in Germany will pay to purchase American goods when the price to ship via the airlines has tripled because of these measures and delayed the delivery to them by days or weeks? No, they'll buy from somewhere else where they don't need troubled by such nonsense.
Oh really? How do you know how much I know? Actually no one here can prove what someone else knows or doesn't know or what they do for a living - it's an anonymous message board.You've already told me you don't know much, since you asked about the pixie dust, and below you stated that you needed to ask your warehouse guys to ask their drivers about security certifications. If you knew much of anything, you'd already know the answer.
Really? I took a few minutes and walked down to my server team - they are responsible for parts, shipments, etc. I asked if they knew our delivery drivers who handle the critical part shipments - and requested they find out if these people possess a TSA clearance or background check of any kind. I will post the answer after our next delivery, but I already know what it is.
Delivery people do not have the same requirements as shipment pickup drivers. Think about it - at the point of delivery, the cargo has already flown.
Have a nice day. Good luck with your known shipper application.
Jan 9, 2008, 9:12 pm
#2015
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 15,978
And there are rules as to which companies can and cannot do it. Can't get more specific than that.
Honestly though, hit-n-run posting is a rather childish tactic, IMO.
Jan 9, 2008, 9:23 pm
#2016
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Skeptical maybe, but I wouldn't necessarily say closed minded.As to your other point about screening cargo:
So what it comes down to is money. It costs too much and is inconvenient. It's ok to harass people because it's comparatively cheap (although I would argue the loss in tourism because we're an unfriendly nation and the $5+B spent on TSA makes it expensive too) but God forbid we apply the same standard to cargo.
Just shows selfish motives and what we said all along: TSA really isn't interesting in security. When businesses throw a hissy, TSA will bend to accommodate them (ie airport vendors complained about loss due to not being able to sell bottled beverages). They ignore pax unless they gripe about being sexually assaulted by screeners (ie the female breast patdowns that stopped) and it makes them look really bad.
It wouldn't be so bad if TSA actually practiced some risk management. However, all we hear is "be afraid, be afraid" and with cargo going unscreened not for security reasons but economic reasons just doesn't jive with the the crap they spew. There are a lot of issues there and even the GAO thinks it's a big deal. Instead, they focus on pax because that's what people see and ignore cargo, by your admission, for economic reasons. Idiocy and hyprocrisy at its finest.
Bow down to the almighty dollar.
Super
Jan 9, 2008, 9:54 pm
#2017
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Originally Posted by Cargojon
The length of the application process speaks to its through nature. If you're asking what they use to verify information, then you dont' know and shouldn't comment on it.
Let's look at this from another angle. I run a legitimate business, I register as a trusted shipper and I hire cargo handlers who go through (easy to pass) background checks. After working for me for quite some time, one of my employees falls in with a radical group and is recruited for a mission. He arranges to ship a box which contains at its core, a large concentration of explosives, sufficient enough to bring down 5 airliners, all disguised as innocuous cargo. The box is loaded, un-inspected, on a passenger jet - a full NWA or UA 747-400 packed to the gills with people and other un-inspected cargo. I can't even write of the tragedy which would unfold, but it speaks volumes of why this trusted or known shipper program is total nonsense and does not provide any quantifiable benefit to security - beyond creating a gaggle of rules and bureaucratic crap which disguises a terrible risk as 'mission accomplished'.
Do you think that a company in Germany will pay to purchase American goods when the price to ship via the airlines has tripled because of these measures and delayed the delivery to them by days or weeks? No, they'll buy from somewhere else where they don't need troubled by such nonsense.
2. Comprehensive cargo screening can't be a US-only deal. It needs to be driven by ICAO and supported by IATA and all signatories to these organizations must adhere to these standards - which might include offloading unscreened cargo for enroute screening upon arrival in a country who is a signatory to the program. For example, if cargo arrives from Brazzaville to Paris, bound for New York, and the cargo was not screened in Brazzaville, it would be offloaded and screened before being loaded on its connecting flight.
You've already told me you don't know much, since you asked about the pixie dust, and below you stated that you needed to ask your warehouse guys to ask their drivers about security certifications. If you knew much of anything, you'd already know the answer.
Delivery people do not have the same requirements as shipment pickup drivers. Think about it - at the point of delivery, the cargo has already flown
Also, let's not forget the fact that packages under 1lb weight are exempt from trusted shipper nonsense. I can walk to my Delta Dash counter with a package weighing 14oz and ship with nothing more than my ID and credit card. There are explosive compounds out there which even 10oz of material could do significant damage. How does that play into your 'everythings safe here' claim?
Jan 9, 2008, 10:09 pm
#2018
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Suburban Philadelphia
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG Gold
Posts: 3,392
"ETA: http://www.delta.com/business_progra...ices/index.jsp
Cargo Products & Services
Regulatory changes, following September 11th, require all Delta cargo weighing more than 16 ounces be tendered only by:
Known Shippers: if your company ships at least six times a year, submit a Known Shipper Request form online and allow 2–3 weeks for completion of all screening requirements.
Indirect Air Carriers: for details on approval to tender cargo as an indirect air carrier, contact your area representative.
Note: With the exception of pets that can be visually inspected, shipments by individuals are no longer accepted on Delta passenger aircraft."
Nobody's hit and run posting....if I disclosed security information that was deemed sensitive, what's the point of having the security information? I'm not going to provide some terrorist cell with information they can use to attempt to circumvent our security measures...that would be far worse than childish.
Jan 9, 2008, 10:34 pm
#2019
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Join Date: Sep 2002
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That's a Delta policy, not a government policy. Delta might decline my 'individual' business, but other airlines will accept it provided I register with them. Also, I can circumvent Delta's restriction by registering my sole proprietorship as a 'business customer'.
Jan 9, 2008, 11:36 pm
#2020
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,662
And I'm betting it wouldn't be too hard to game that system. I am not at all convinced that it's anwhere as secure as you suggest it is.
Jan 10, 2008, 2:42 am
#2021
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
I'm guessing that Cargojon is not so subtly suggesting that there are US intelligence agencies that take the data that is submitted in these applications and run it through certain databases to see if there is any linkage to terrorist organizations (to use the word loosely). That sort of thing is going on (and personally I'm rather glad of it), however it doesn't come close to closing all the holes.
That sort of thing also goes on for each and every one of us who travel. In fact that is the only true security that our tax dollars buy us. However as pointed out here we still have to endure the TSA theater at the airport. But also as pointed out it is just theater to make the public feel safe whereas the cargo industry doesn't need to feel safe.
So to sum it up, the REAL behind the scenes security examines both human and non-human cargo in a pretty efficient, but non-perfect manner. The part that frustrates any traveler with a functioning brain is that we have to endure the TSA nonsense on top of it.
That sort of thing also goes on for each and every one of us who travel. In fact that is the only true security that our tax dollars buy us. However as pointed out here we still have to endure the TSA theater at the airport. But also as pointed out it is just theater to make the public feel safe whereas the cargo industry doesn't need to feel safe.
So to sum it up, the REAL behind the scenes security examines both human and non-human cargo in a pretty efficient, but non-perfect manner. The part that frustrates any traveler with a functioning brain is that we have to endure the TSA nonsense on top of it.
Jan 10, 2008, 8:20 am
#2022
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Suburban Philadelphia
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG Gold
Posts: 3,392
I'm guessing that Cargojon is not so subtly suggesting that there are US intelligence agencies that take the data that is submitted in these applications and run it through certain databases to see if there is any linkage to terrorist organizations (to use the word loosely). That sort of thing is going on (and personally I'm rather glad of it), however it doesn't come close to closing all the holes.
That sort of thing also goes on for each and every one of us who travel. In fact that is the only true security that our tax dollars buy us. However as pointed out here we still have to endure the TSA theater at the airport. But also as pointed out it is just theater to make the public feel safe whereas the cargo industry doesn't need to feel safe.
So to sum it up, the REAL behind the scenes security examines both human and non-human cargo in a pretty efficient, but non-perfect manner. The part that frustrates any traveler with a functioning brain is that we have to endure the TSA nonsense on top of it.
That sort of thing also goes on for each and every one of us who travel. In fact that is the only true security that our tax dollars buy us. However as pointed out here we still have to endure the TSA theater at the airport. But also as pointed out it is just theater to make the public feel safe whereas the cargo industry doesn't need to feel safe.
So to sum it up, the REAL behind the scenes security examines both human and non-human cargo in a pretty efficient, but non-perfect manner. The part that frustrates any traveler with a functioning brain is that we have to endure the TSA nonsense on top of it.
Jan 14, 2008, 8:53 pm
#2023
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado
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Posts: 445
Okay, so let me get this right, you decided to make a stand and write on your baggie for security, common sense might tell one that to obscure their view and throw up a neon sign that says, "Hey, molest me!" might not be the brightest thing to do, and you got molested. Hmmm...
Constitutional violations, the TSA being an ... asside, you did set it in motion.
From my experience with law enforcement, you can decline ID to TSA, but they can make your go through the ringer to get onto your plane. Laws in states differ, some say that an officer has no right to obtain your ID if you are not under arrest/investigation, though I don't think I would want to take the chance of getting an obstruction, or disorderly conduct charge trying to push it, you did the right thing handing it over or your probably would not have made your flight.
I am all about free speech, but sometimes, people just ask to have their edges frayed in trying to demand it.
-Patrick
Constitutional violations, the TSA being an ... asside, you did set it in motion.
From my experience with law enforcement, you can decline ID to TSA, but they can make your go through the ringer to get onto your plane. Laws in states differ, some say that an officer has no right to obtain your ID if you are not under arrest/investigation, though I don't think I would want to take the chance of getting an obstruction, or disorderly conduct charge trying to push it, you did the right thing handing it over or your probably would not have made your flight.
I am all about free speech, but sometimes, people just ask to have their edges frayed in trying to demand it.
-Patrick
I was detained for about 25 minutes today after passing though the TSA checkpoint at MKE terminal E.
I thought about posting this in the other treads devoted to their experience today under the new new liquids-are-okay-in-a-quart bag rule, but I decided it needed its own thread.
Yesterday, while discussing the new rules a fellow Flyertalker suggested we write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on the outside of our clear plastic quart bags. So I did just that.
At the MKE "E" checkpoint I placed my laptop in one bin, and my shoes, cell phone and quart bag in a second bin. The TSA guy who was pushing bags and bins into the X-ray machine took a good hard look, and then as the bag when though the X-ray I think he told the X-ray operator to call for a bag check/explosive swab on my roller bag to slow me down. He went strait to the TSA Supervisor on duty and boy did he come marching over to the checkpoint with fire in his eyes!
He grabbed the baggie as it came out of the X-ray and asked if it was mine. After responding yes, he pointed at my comment and demanded to know "What is this supposed to mean?" "It could me a lot of things, it happens to be an opinion on mine." "You can't write things like this" he said, "You mean my First Amendment right to freedom of speech doesn't apply here?" "Out there (pointing pass the id checkers) not while in here (pointing down) was his response."
At this point I chuckled, just looking at him wondering if he just realized how foolish that comment was, but I think my laugh pushed him over the edge as he got really angry at this point. A Milwaukee County Sheriffs deputy was summoned - I would have left at this point, but he had my quart bag with my toothpaste and hair gel.
When the deputy got over the TSA supervisor showed him the bag and told him what had happened to that point. After he had finished I started to remind him he had left out his statement that my First Amendment rights didn't apply "here" but was cut off by the deputy who demanding my ID. I asked if I was under arrest, and his response was "Right now you are not under arrest, you are being detained." I produced my passport and he walked off with it and called in my name to see if I had any outstanding warrants, etc. The TSA supervisor picked up the phone about 20 feet away and called someone? At this point two more officers were near by and I struck up a conversation with the female officer who was making sure I kept put. I explained to her who Kip Hawley was, why I though he was an idiot, and my surprise that the TSA Supervisor felt my First Amendment rights didn't' apply at the TSA checkpoint. She didn't say much.
After he was assured I didn't have any warrants out the first office came back and I had my first chance to really speak, I explained that I was just expressing my opinion and my writing should be protected my by First Amendment rights. When he didn't respond, I then repeated that the TSA Supervisor stated my First Amendment rights didn't apply at the TSA check point and I asked if he (the deputy) agreed that was the case. He responded by saying "You can't yell fire in a crowed theater, there are limits to your rights.
At this point I chucked again
I asked how this was even remotely like shouting "Fire" in a crowd, and his answer was "Perhaps your comments made them feel threatened."
At about this point the TSA Supervisor finished up his phone call, and summoned the officer back over. They talked for about 2 minutes, and then both came back over. The officer pulled out his pad and asked for my address and I asked why he needed it. "For the report I have to file since I was summoned here" I started to give it, when I noticed the TSA Supervisor was writing it down as well, so I stopped and asked why he needed it. He said he needed to file an incident report too, and I took the opportunity to ask what the resolution of the incident was, did I do anything wrong? Are you going to ask the officer to arrest me? He said no, I was free to go, but he was going to confiscate my bag. I asked "If I did nothing wrong, why would you take my bag" He pointed to a posted sign that said something about reusing plastic bags (the MKE TSA was providing quart sized zipper bags to pax today) I let him know that I had brought my bag from home and would not be letting him take it. He then asked for permission of photograph it, which I agreed too.
While he walked away to get the camera I finished giving my address to the deputy, and he told my "You're free to go" Total time, about 25 minutes
After the TSA Supervisor took the photo I followed him back to his desk - he had a pretty shocked look on his face when he turned around and saw me there, and we talked for about 5 minutes, but when he rolled his eyes at me I quickly realized that he wasn't going to listen to anything I said.
I have a couple of questions:
Could I have refused to provide my ID and/or address to the officer since I wasn't under arrest?
When asked for my ID do I have to hand it over or can I hang on to it? By giving it to the deputy, he walked of with it and I felt stuck.
-------------------------------------
As this thread approached 100 pages of post, I realized that some people don't want to wade though over 1000 posts, however I would suggest the following posts are important to view in addition to the OP before you jump into the discussion at the end.
Post #157 - My complaint to TSA.gov
Post #696 - Yes, I've written letters and protested these stupid rules in other ways
Post #1100 - IMHO the whole reason this story became newsworthy
Post #1110 - The only official TSA response so far
Post #1184 - The official statement by the ACLU on this matter
Post #1249 - The benefits of protest and this discussion in general
Post #1526 - What changes would I make to the TSA you ask?
I thought about posting this in the other treads devoted to their experience today under the new new liquids-are-okay-in-a-quart bag rule, but I decided it needed its own thread.
Yesterday, while discussing the new rules a fellow Flyertalker suggested we write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on the outside of our clear plastic quart bags. So I did just that.
At the MKE "E" checkpoint I placed my laptop in one bin, and my shoes, cell phone and quart bag in a second bin. The TSA guy who was pushing bags and bins into the X-ray machine took a good hard look, and then as the bag when though the X-ray I think he told the X-ray operator to call for a bag check/explosive swab on my roller bag to slow me down. He went strait to the TSA Supervisor on duty and boy did he come marching over to the checkpoint with fire in his eyes!
He grabbed the baggie as it came out of the X-ray and asked if it was mine. After responding yes, he pointed at my comment and demanded to know "What is this supposed to mean?" "It could me a lot of things, it happens to be an opinion on mine." "You can't write things like this" he said, "You mean my First Amendment right to freedom of speech doesn't apply here?" "Out there (pointing pass the id checkers) not while in here (pointing down) was his response."
At this point I chuckled, just looking at him wondering if he just realized how foolish that comment was, but I think my laugh pushed him over the edge as he got really angry at this point. A Milwaukee County Sheriffs deputy was summoned - I would have left at this point, but he had my quart bag with my toothpaste and hair gel.
When the deputy got over the TSA supervisor showed him the bag and told him what had happened to that point. After he had finished I started to remind him he had left out his statement that my First Amendment rights didn't apply "here" but was cut off by the deputy who demanding my ID. I asked if I was under arrest, and his response was "Right now you are not under arrest, you are being detained." I produced my passport and he walked off with it and called in my name to see if I had any outstanding warrants, etc. The TSA supervisor picked up the phone about 20 feet away and called someone? At this point two more officers were near by and I struck up a conversation with the female officer who was making sure I kept put. I explained to her who Kip Hawley was, why I though he was an idiot, and my surprise that the TSA Supervisor felt my First Amendment rights didn't' apply at the TSA checkpoint. She didn't say much.
After he was assured I didn't have any warrants out the first office came back and I had my first chance to really speak, I explained that I was just expressing my opinion and my writing should be protected my by First Amendment rights. When he didn't respond, I then repeated that the TSA Supervisor stated my First Amendment rights didn't apply at the TSA check point and I asked if he (the deputy) agreed that was the case. He responded by saying "You can't yell fire in a crowed theater, there are limits to your rights.
At this point I chucked again
I asked how this was even remotely like shouting "Fire" in a crowd, and his answer was "Perhaps your comments made them feel threatened."
At about this point the TSA Supervisor finished up his phone call, and summoned the officer back over. They talked for about 2 minutes, and then both came back over. The officer pulled out his pad and asked for my address and I asked why he needed it. "For the report I have to file since I was summoned here" I started to give it, when I noticed the TSA Supervisor was writing it down as well, so I stopped and asked why he needed it. He said he needed to file an incident report too, and I took the opportunity to ask what the resolution of the incident was, did I do anything wrong? Are you going to ask the officer to arrest me? He said no, I was free to go, but he was going to confiscate my bag. I asked "If I did nothing wrong, why would you take my bag" He pointed to a posted sign that said something about reusing plastic bags (the MKE TSA was providing quart sized zipper bags to pax today) I let him know that I had brought my bag from home and would not be letting him take it. He then asked for permission of photograph it, which I agreed too.
While he walked away to get the camera I finished giving my address to the deputy, and he told my "You're free to go" Total time, about 25 minutes
After the TSA Supervisor took the photo I followed him back to his desk - he had a pretty shocked look on his face when he turned around and saw me there, and we talked for about 5 minutes, but when he rolled his eyes at me I quickly realized that he wasn't going to listen to anything I said.
I have a couple of questions:
Could I have refused to provide my ID and/or address to the officer since I wasn't under arrest?
When asked for my ID do I have to hand it over or can I hang on to it? By giving it to the deputy, he walked of with it and I felt stuck.
-------------------------------------
As this thread approached 100 pages of post, I realized that some people don't want to wade though over 1000 posts, however I would suggest the following posts are important to view in addition to the OP before you jump into the discussion at the end.
Post #157 - My complaint to TSA.gov
Post #696 - Yes, I've written letters and protested these stupid rules in other ways
Post #1100 - IMHO the whole reason this story became newsworthy
Post #1110 - The only official TSA response so far
Post #1184 - The official statement by the ACLU on this matter
Post #1249 - The benefits of protest and this discussion in general
Post #1526 - What changes would I make to the TSA you ask?
Jan 15, 2008, 12:33 am
#2024
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 258
Way to miss the point Patrick. He did something legal and was punished in retaliation for it(very very wrong)...yet you say he caused the issue...so does a girl in a short skirt cause her rape? By your logic yes.
People who roll over and say "it isn't worth the hassle to defend my rights" are part of the problem and do not deserve those freedoms.
People who roll over and say "it isn't worth the hassle to defend my rights" are part of the problem and do not deserve those freedoms.
Last edited by vesicle; Jan 15, 2008 at 2:55 am
Jan 15, 2008, 4:15 am
#2025
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Greater DC
Programs: UA plus
Posts: 12,943
Originally Posted by TIGA31328
I don't think I would want to take the chance....
It's a good thing that there are others that do take a "chance" or better yet, "make a stand". Their actions and the results benefit you and others too afraid, blind or unwilling to stand up for their own rights whether you're aware of it or not.