Teacher49

It is clear from the rate of success achieved by the people who test the system the the TSA doesn't come close to getting it right every single time. That and the number of stories posted by people on FT - a relatively small sample of flyers - on missed cell phones carried in pockets, etc. etc. - show that the system leaks like a sieve.

The fact that there hasn't been a repeat of 9/11 much more likely shows that there have not been many serious attempts.

As horrific as 9/11 was, the most logical conclusion is that it was a one-off. It has succeeded in its intent: to terrorize the world into spending vast amounts of money and into giving up personal rights in perpetuity.

studentff

Having the government track all of my domestic and foreign travel, examine my work, credit, and housing records, and use that information to develop a "threat score" that I am not allowed to see or contest but is used to determine if I am permitted to travel within my own friggen country (or leave the country) will not make me feel any safer.

It will make me feel like I did when I visited Soviet East Berlin in the mid 80s. Papers please?

ND Sol

Just like EWR's failure rate of over 90% on a recent test should tell us something. How many other failures have not seen the light of day? The TSA has yet to stop a terrorist at a checkpoint. And I don't believe that it is because terrorists are too afraid to try to get through airport security.

tom911

Welcome to FlyerTalk

RandomTSO

That I've found? Firearms.

Thankya sir!

I havn't seen a cell phone yet that won't set off a walk through metal detector. Once that goes off, you get the secondary screening... how is that a miss...?

I'll admit this, I can't speak for what goes on at other airports, as I havn't been anywhere besides the two that I've worked.

I JUST found out about that system 3 days ago (checking the news on my phone while on the bus from the parking lot for work). I was kinda suprised to find out about it. ...just kinda

Im curious to know how you guys would do it differently. I read that one guy's opinion, but what do the rest of you suggest? If you have any good ones I'll try to pass it up the line (not that they ever listen to their grunts or anything...)

stimpy

Over the years, thousands upon thousands of firearms have been illegally brought onto airplanes. I can only think of one occurrence where that lead to a plane going down (US Air employee suicide). And nowadays with reinforced cockpit doors and raised passenger awareness even that occurrence couldn't really happen again.

So please don't delude yourself into thinking you saved America.

RandomTSO

Im well aware of the vast amount of quotes from our founding fathers on liberty (I was an avid history fan in highschool, mostly revolution/civil war). However there isnt really a better way for us to do this. I see security as kinda like this: (no laughing at my drawing, it took me a whole 2 min in MSpaint!)




The closer you get to one side, the further you are from another. Its hard to balance it out (which is why we have the whole 3oz baggie thingy, while we'd rather no liquids went period, we know that the general public either a) doesnt understand; or b) finds it utterly stupid)



ROFL, you think I really believe that I saved america?


Gimmie a break bro. All I did was prevent a POSSIBLE occurance. Most of the firearms I've seen caught were people forgetting they had em in their bag.

All I said is that it was a POSSIBLE threat that was caught.

Besides, Im not so self righteous to believe that I saved america. Hell, I'm not even THAT proud of the job I do. Like I said, I'm here because its a stepping stone. But when people sit there and pick at us and insult us unanswered, well, I gotta say SOMETHING

Dude, its Jersey lol. You expect THAT much?

stimpy

Sorry about that, but lots of your colleagues are under the delusion that they are the main deterrent to terrorism. They don't realize that the real security is being done by other 3-letter agencies.

As for the insults, you should try to understand just how furious we are about this as frequent flyers. The terrorists haven't changed our way of life. Only the TSA is guilty of that. If there is a real good reason for security, I don't mind giving up a few freedoms. For instance I am really not too upset that I cannot bring a pistol on board. However taking away my freedom to travel with my toiletries and medicine for NO GOOD REASON and lying to me about it will just never sit well with me. More worrying is the fact that the restrictions are progressive and mistakenly reactionary.

Teacher49

With all respect: duh! Of course you are not going to SEE the cell phone that doesn't set off the metal detector. In the past few days, several people have posted in this section FT about inadvertently carrying their cell through ... no alarm.

BDLORD

At OGG friday nite, berated me about a container of nasal spray. Made me get a pat down.
Meanwhile the wife forgot about a 20 oz bottle of water. They missed it.
Doh!

red456

And miserably failing at both.

Wrong. What you said was:

Global_Hi_Flyer

The most desirable alternative is to eliminate it entirely for US Citizens. I should not be subject to this system when returning to MY home country (which happens to be the country of my citizenship and of my birth).

Disclose the information that goes into the score. Allow for a panel of outside experts to determine whether the scoring truly works. Require controlled testing of any scoring parameters.

In the event of a negative finding, disclose the reasons for the negative finding and allow passengers the ability to correct any incorrect information. It's required of credit bureaus - this has more negative implications than credit.

Eliminate the retention period. There is no earthly reason this data needs to be kept for 40 years. It can work like a credit score - determined almost instantaneously, with no need to retain the data. Should retention be required, it should be limited to the shortest practical time period - and I cannot see how that period ought to be more than a year.

Deny all access to this data to contractors or employers. Bad enough that I already - as a US citizen - have to prove to an employer that I am a citizen, and that he/she/it has to keep a record of that proof. And that some employers conduct background checks. Worse if something negative shows up in the Customs score, and you don't know/can't contest it.... and if 'mission creep' requires this system to be used for the "proof of citizenship" for employment.

Finally, tell the truth, all the way through. The stated justification for the system in the document's regulatory statement says that the only potential negative outcome is to force the passenger to undergo a more detailed inspection/secondary review. Yet, later in the document, it indicates that the system and data may be shared with others, including law enforcement, local officials, contractors, and (potentially, as others pointed out) employers. That is wholly inconsistent with the regulatory statement. I'll stop short of calling DHS liars, but it does appear that something smells like rotting fish here.

Global_Hi_Flyer

p.s. the government can't keep us "safe". A bazillion dollars spent by the government can't keep us "safe". Police can't and don't "keep us safe" (if they did, there would be no crime at all). I posit that the only way government can even begin to keep us safe is to track our every move, and require us to have permission to do anything, including bodily functions.

At the risk of sending this to omni, only a true communist or liberal thinks that the government is a cocoon of safety.

Ah, so do I hear you saying "shut up and take it. Questions are not allowed".

Big Mo

Nice drawing! Better than I could do. You're missing a direction, though. Ineffectual "security" measures move us away from civil rights and "customer friendly" without moving us any closer to security.

The DHS, DOD, and DOJ claim that everything they do makes us safer, but that's just spin. Excuse me (and others) for being skeptical.

To illustrate my point through an extreme example torn from today's headlines: a passenger at ORD was arrested and then imprisoned for years without charges at a Naval brig under these conditions. This doesn't make us safer.

RandomTSO

Wrong.

What I said regarding SECONDARY SCREENING was that we catch stuff that might normally be missed.

Youre twisting my words bro.

No way, you can ask questions, but I as lowly TSO pondscum cannot answer em all!

I know its a PITA, especially for frequent flyers. You know who gets it the worst tho? The people with the knee/hip/shoulder/whereeverelsehasbroken replacements. They get a rub down every time they fly, while you're just not allowed to have toiletries IN THE CABIN. You could check em in (I dont know if you fly with only carryons or what, since I don't know you or your business travel habits). But lying to you? Who lied to ya?






BTW, I'm trying to be as civil as possible guys, don't gang up on me too hard



edit:


Oh I know what you mean, believe me, lol. I'm sure not EVERYTHING makes US safer. Might make it more ideal for the GOVERNMENT, but not necessarily us, the people. Still, I think theres reasons for everything. Even if its to rape our civil rights :P