SDF_Traveler

Greetings -

I believe most of you (regulars) here have read about the problems I encounter with selectee status when I purchase a NW ticket that involves a CO codeshare for one direction of my travel (despite being on a round-trip).

Does CO use the CAPPS system at their European stations like they do here in the US to pick out 'selectees'?

Reason I ask is I just booked a ticket with NW involving multiple carriers. My outbound is:

SDF-MEM (NW) (CRJ)
MEM-DTW (NW) (752)
DTW-AMS (NW) (744)
AMS-BCN (KL) (737)

My return is:

MAD-EWR (CO) (777)
EWR-SDF (CO) (ERJ)

I've never had problems between KLM and NW, just NW & CO. My return is booked as CO flights (no NW codeshare). All flights are on the same e-ticket and no codeshares are involved (other than Pinnacle for SDF-MEM and ExpressJet for CO EWR-SDF).

Given my previous CO problems on NW tix, I'm wondering if CO's system will flag me as a one-way international pax for super selectee status of some type given the previous problems I've had with one direction travel on CO using a round-trip NW issued tickets. ?? I'm thinking this might be a flight where it would be a good idea to show up very early.

This is an award ticket, FWIW. I got lucky and snagged my outbound in First (domestic legs) / World Business Class (Intl legs), but my return is in economy on CO.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

P.S. I know that US carriers typically do a security interview for Europe - US travel among other things. Luckily, I have not had to endure one of these in a few years since I've used KLM for all my Europe-US flights lately. KLM has never done the "interviews" whereas US airlines like Delta do. I presume CO does such interviews.

P.P.S. Some of the DL security interviews I've had (in past years, pre 9/11) have been quite intensive as well.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin


[This message has been edited by SDF_Traveler (edited 07-05-2003).]

Mats

I don't know if they use CAPPS overseas or not. That's a good question. ICTS, the security firm, already uses a computerized analysis system so I don't know if they use CAPPS on top of that.

In my experience, the interviews have varied depending on the particular staff on duty and the station. I thought it would be more intensive after September 11 but no... actually more relaxed. In many cases I think they're just required to ask 7-10 questions in no particular order.

My father was just in Schipol and felt overwhelmed by the security on Continental. He does have a dark beard though.

I don't feel quite so intimidated if I remember that the person interviewing me is often 19 or 20 years old, has no special powers, makes less money than I do, etc. If they let Dick Reid on board with a fake passport and unusual footwear, they're probably not the best and the brightest.

Incidentally, El Al is working to eliminate the interviews. Since they already have a trusted traveller program, many of their passengers don't deal with them anymore. (See this month's Air Transport World.)

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

LAX Screener

As a private security consultant I'm sure you must be aware of how IN-effective the current TSA procedures are. TSA was suppose to implement all sorts of "new" technologies to thrart the bad guys, instead we are having little old ladies removing thier shoes in the middle of a busy airport.

And your statement that this will only take a few minutes is fine if there is only one PAX. But in reality when you're trying to load multiple 747s with 400+ PAXs each, the poor guy at the end of the line had to show up a couple of hours early just to get his 5 minutes of fame prior to boarding.

I say let's stop doing security the old fashioned way. All that does is piss off PAXs and make terrorist laugh. I beg Loy to get off the dime and implement the new technology. Stop wasting money on the old technology.

SDF_Traveler

So, when I purchase a round trip ticket 1-2 months in advance from Northwest with an outbound on Northwest (Friday departure) and a return operated by CO (NW codeshare flight) on a Sunday or a Monday (simple weekend trip), I'm considered such a threat that I get "selectee" status? Happens all the time with the above scenario. If I buy NW only segments or CO only segments, no problems. It seems to me CO's computers are so smart they don't realize I'm flying round-trip on a ticket issued by a partner airline that I have elite status with, but instead think I'm trying to fly one way. Not that CO even offers one-way "T" class fares in the markets I fly (typically a K class r/t on NW but CO converts the class code over to T for their purposes). I don't think there are many markets where you can buy K/V class tix on NW "one-way" either as they typically require RT travel, along with adv purchase requirements, etc.

Selectee status only taking 5 minutes? hah.. Only in a perfect world at a small southern airport like GSO I suppose.

I noticed in your other post you talk about a new selectee lane at GSO. Guess what? Other airports like SAN have a selectee lane too -- you know how long one must wait at the selectee lane just to get through the friggin checkpoint for a typical lunchtime departure?

By time time I'm cleared, it typically takes 30 minutes to an hour on some days. I make a point to arrive at least an hour if not 90 minutes prior (for domestic), depending on the station, but there's absolutely no reason I should be standing in a selectee line to get my selectee treatment and it taking *an hour* of my time.

So you say 5 minutes after getting to the front of the selectee line? haha.. ok, so I go through the Arch and don't beep, then end up waiting for a screener to wand me and probe me even though I don't beep (heck, why even have selectees go through the arch when they are probed head-to-toe at the checkpoint anyway - it doesn't seem to matter if you make it through the arch without beeping).

If I'm lucky, 10-15 minutes for the process to be finished after I've stood in the "selectee" line for an extended period of time.

So, I take it the system works so great that a 20-something white male that has elite membership in NW's FF program must get "selecteed" and "checkpoint raped" everytime they purchase a ticket with Credit Card for round-trip travel on Northwest but flights in one direction end up being codeshares on CO metal. Great System!

And no, I don't carry 70 lb luggage let alone "crap" purchased at "WalMart", er Wally/Walton World. I suppose if I had purchased "crap" from Wally World I would not have had to submit a $740 claim the one time the TSA searched my suitcase and re-packed it with someone elses clothing, eh?

As a security professional, can you tell us when the "back-door" problem will be fixed? Between that and scanning cargo (yes, cargo has trusted shipper programs), those are two major security problems.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

P.S. You've worked on CAPPS? (the program that determines selectees).. So you're a computer programmer and a TSA screener?

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

Mats

Fenito, you may want to read the Reason Foundation's recent research about how trusted traveler programs work and how they prevent terrorists from obtaining trusted traveller credentials: http://www.rppi.org/ps308.pdf

It's been extraordinarily well-received. Co-author George Passantino also said that even the TSA had positive feedback about the report.

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

AArlington

So with all the passengers and bags you have screened, have you ever found anything beyond knitting needles and fingernail clippers?

Is selectee status all about making sure we are not racist and that we select all people equally, regardless of risk? People that fly 3 days per week are people who keep the airlines in business; cut them some slack. All travellers are not equal. What happens when people entitled to use the elite security lines are diverted to the longer (ok; maybe not longer in people but longer in wait times) selectee lines?

"You should come to the airport 2 hours before departure; if you miss your flight, tough."

This is unresonable for frequent travellers; if they stop travlling the airlines lose a lot of revenue.

With the electronic check in kiosks and simply a carry-on bag, I am immediately at the TSA lanes; with an elite lane it usually takes no more than 5 minutes and I am in the concourse and at the gate a few minutes later; should I then kill an hour and a half before the plane boards?

CATSA Screener

I found a S&W pistol once but it turned out just to be a Mountie who'd forgotten to show us his paperwork.

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

LAX Screener

I've never understood this passion for treating all people the same. Call me a racist if you want but I have always and will always treat people differently. I treat the 92 year old grandma different than the 24 year old construction worker. I treat the person in a wheel chair different than the infant in a stroller. I’ll always treat all people with respect, so just give me a break if I don't treat everyone equal!

If a terrorist is mind bent on a target, they will be able to compromise any security system. Do any of you remember an Egyptian pilot taking a jumbo jet with passenger to a quick demise over the Atlantic? Was he part of a bigger plot? In hindsight I’m sure there are a lot of questions and answers in some government file. My point is, even with the most stringent security nothing could have stopped that insane person. If any security system can be compromised then why are we hassling 99.99% of the passengers that just want to go from point A to point B? Can’t we find a better way to accomplish the same level of security that won’t make the vast majority of the travelers suffer? I’m certain that we can, I just hope that TSA figures it out soon.

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

SDF_Traveler

Hi Fenito -

Isn't CAPPS the program that determines selectees? CAPPS = Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-Screening. Or do you have a different system which determines selectees? It's my understanding that CAPPS is the program which determines who gets selectee status and additional screening.

In my experience, things vary dramaticly between airports and even different terminals & checkpoints at the same airport. I suspect the size of your airport, staffing levels, and the number of people traveling on tickets which would kick-in selectee status are all factors which result in the efficient screening at your airport. I don't have any recent experience at GSO, so I will presume it's efficient as you say.

If things like one-way tickets are factors that result in selectee status, I could see where certain airports could be hit harder with more selectees because of budget carriers offering cheap one ways. If one-way travel is a factor, and I suspect it is, it could easily be avoided by purchasing a round-trip ticket and tossing away the second half, which is a common practice because adv purchase round-trip fares are often cheaper than one-ways in many markets.

Personally, I don't see or understand why a passenger on a one-way ticket is deemed a higher security risk by the system which picks out selectees. Perhaps you can provide some insight?

Is there a pattern among past terrorists using one-way tickets? If there is such a pattern and that is one of the reasons for getting selected, wouldn't you think potential terrorists would know this and not purchase one-way tickets?

Besides, many people traveling one-way often do so on throw-away return tickets for the cheaper fare. That leaves two primary groups of passengers using one way tickets - the first group being those on budget carriers and the second business travelers who use one-way tickets on majors because they're typically refundable, changable, and allow business travelers to hit multiple destinations on one trip with a series of one-way tickets.

Personally, I feel the system that picks out selectees is seriously flawed. It gets me on a regular basis when using last minute (typically high revenue) tickets for work, yet at the same time it gets me when doing leisure travel involving codeshares as I previously described . At the same time, I don't believe all passengers can be treated equal -- everyone gets basic screening, but an effective risk evaluation system needs to be used to determine who gets more screening. That being said, CAPPS II goes way too far and is a blatent invasion of privacy. There are other methods available to determine risk which would work better, IMHO.

Between a few factors, I typically know before I get to the airport if I am a selectee or not. As it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure some of these items out, all a potential terrorist would have to do is buy an adv purchase, non-refundable round-trip ticket with a credit card using the same carrier on all segments -- the chances of this individual becoming a selectee would be low.

I also see it being problematic that selectee status is openly advertised on BP's with the SSSS. To improve security, one should not know if they are a selectee or not (IMHO). If a would-be terrorist knows he/she is a selectee, he/she could avoid gettting caught by not going through security. The person could then leave the airport, get a new ticket, and try again for a BP without the SSSS.

How many 70 lb pound bags do you really get? Most airlines have limited checked luggage to 50 lbs. Those wanting to check more than 50 lbs in one item now have to pay an additional charge. Personally I never get near the 50 lbs limit for most of my travel. I pack light and if there is anything I absolutely need when traveling, I buy it.

I figure if I can't fit it into my suitcase comfortably, I don't need it. On longer trips, I do laundry instead of bringing extra clothing.

It sounds like you have an efficient operation at your airport from what you say. I only wish all airports could operate like yours. Luckily things at SDF, my primary home airport, have been smooth lately, with a few exceptions. On occassion lines will get long and a few times I've experienced screeners on power trips @ SDF - but it seems the screeners on power trips are being weeded out or I've just been lucky lately.

Thanks for your contributions here, Fenito. While lines & problems at other airports are not your fault, I think the above is the first time anyone on this group with the TSA has said they were sorry to hear of the long waits at other airports.

Hopefully the problems will get fixed, but I honestly feel the TSA needs to go. I think airport security can be handled better by a private company with proper funding and proper oversight. In the past, it was the airlines that paid for security - as such, the proper funding wasn't there for professional security.

As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If we are able to pay private companies to provide top quality security, it's in my opinion we'll get it. We won't get it from the government, IMHO -- private industry is the best way to go. If incentives like bonuses (both for employees & the private company) are added in for performance, quality would go up. In regards to performance, I'm not talking about just how fast pax could be screened - but how effective private security is at catching actual illegal items, illegal test items, etc. Things like retention bonuses and the ability to earn more & make a career in aviation security would go a long way too. Of course there would have to be government oversight, but airport security needs to be taken out of the government hands ASAP, IMHO.

When it comes to needed security equipment to be efficient, I also feel it needs to be private industry deciding what to purchase and not the government making purchasing decisions that are political.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin