Passports and hotels
Oct 23, 2016, 12:06 pm
#1
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,203
Passports and hotels
I did a little searching on FT and did not find anything definitive.
In the states, a hotel generally will ask to see my driver's license when checking in, but that is the extent of it. (Although hotels located within Neptune Township, NJ, must take a copy of your driver's license and maintain it for 1 year per the town ordinance.)
I think we all know that lodging in Europe and at least some parts of Asia require passport information upon check-in. In Europe, it generally seems to be simply entering the passport number in your booking. Or in the case if a Marriott property today in eastern Europe, she simply took a quick look at it (did not leave my hand). Whereas all properties in Asia that I have stayed at have made a copy (although none - from mom/pop guest houses to the IC in Singapore can answer what happens to those copies).
Is there valuable information on a passport that could be used elsewhere? My full name and date of birth are easily obtainable. I don't use a passport when applying for credit. Are there other concerns about copies of passport face pages lying around?
This is a mild curiosity as there is nothing I can do to change the practice.
In the states, a hotel generally will ask to see my driver's license when checking in, but that is the extent of it. (Although hotels located within Neptune Township, NJ, must take a copy of your driver's license and maintain it for 1 year per the town ordinance.)
I think we all know that lodging in Europe and at least some parts of Asia require passport information upon check-in. In Europe, it generally seems to be simply entering the passport number in your booking. Or in the case if a Marriott property today in eastern Europe, she simply took a quick look at it (did not leave my hand). Whereas all properties in Asia that I have stayed at have made a copy (although none - from mom/pop guest houses to the IC in Singapore can answer what happens to those copies).
Is there valuable information on a passport that could be used elsewhere? My full name and date of birth are easily obtainable. I don't use a passport when applying for credit. Are there other concerns about copies of passport face pages lying around?
This is a mild curiosity as there is nothing I can do to change the practice.
Oct 23, 2016, 12:40 pm
#2
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Not every EU/EEA country requires passport/ID checks of hotel guests.
I check into lots of hotels in Europe without showing any photo ID. And then there are other countries where I am always (or nearly always) asked to show a passport or national ID card
The name and birthdate in hand can help lead to lots of info about some people.
I check into lots of hotels in Europe without showing any photo ID. And then there are other countries where I am always (or nearly always) asked to show a passport or national ID card
The name and birthdate in hand can help lead to lots of info about some people.
Oct 24, 2016, 12:34 am
#3
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Not every EU/EEA country requires passport/ID checks of hotel guests.
I check into lots of hotels in Europe without showing any photo ID. And then there are other countries where I am always (or nearly always) asked to show a passport or national ID card
The name and birthdate in hand can help lead to lots of info about some people.
I check into lots of hotels in Europe without showing any photo ID. And then there are other countries where I am always (or nearly always) asked to show a passport or national ID card
The name and birthdate in hand can help lead to lots of info about some people.
Some EU states have even stricter requirements, such as Italy where this information must be reported to police nightly; some hotels insist on holding on to your passport overnight for this reason, causing some understandable discomfort among some.
As for data security, someone's full name and birthdate is critical vital information that is used all the time for nefarious purposes. But I would not worry about people getting this information from your passport. In some US states, this information is a public record, making it next to useless as "secrets"
Oct 24, 2016, 1:56 am
#4
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Even in Italy, they don't verify and record the identity and nationality of all guests on premises. Young Italian minors are hotel guests too, and they don't all have national ID/passports. Where is the Italian law that says that all Italian minors who are hotel guests must also submit national ID/passports? Legally, the Italian hotels do verify/record my passport info, but then I'm an adult US visitor at an Italian hotel and not an Italian minor at an Italian hotel.
Here is the Schengen treaty text:
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedo....ACQUIS-EN.pdf
Where exactly in there should we all be looking for this legal requirement of the Schengen treaty applicable to hotels? Title II Article 19. But then you have to actually go and look at what each of the separate Schengen countries have done and not done, as not all of them have done the same thing. Strictly speaking, Title II Article 19 is not applicable to hotels.
Originally Posted by bbtrvl
As for data security, someone's full name and birthdate is critical vital information that is used all the time for nefarious purposes. But I would not worry about people getting this information from your passport. In some US states, this information is a public record, making it next to useless as "secrets"
As a practical matter, travelers' privacy and property protection is superior when home address information isn't as easily discernible to so many people on a trip. And full name and birthdate, as on passport, make it a lot easier to figure out where and when a traveler's home is more likely to be an easier target for break-in.
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 24, 2016 at 6:19 am
Oct 24, 2016, 11:16 am
#5
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As a practical matter, travelers' privacy and property protection is superior when home address information isn't as easily discernible to so many people on a trip. And full name and birthdate, as on passport, make it a lot easier to figure out where and when a traveler's home is more likely to be an easier target for break-in.
Last edited by Section 107; Oct 24, 2016 at 1:35 pm Reason: grammer :)
Oct 24, 2016, 12:11 pm
#6
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Please. A country's security services are not interested in, nor do they have programs for, collecting tourist data to support a worldwide burglary scheme. No, in today's world the general the reasons why we do this is (1) to enforce compliance with tax laws; (2) locate/track persons wanted for, or suspected of, criminal behavior (and to maintain a database of movement for investigating incidents); and (3) surveillance for intel/counter-intel or more nefariously, political reasons.
This kind of government requirement -- where applicable -- may also do your 1-3 too; but more travelers are subject to physical break-ins/theft by non-governmental actors than by or on behalf of governmental actors.
But your 1-3 above are another reason to think about why perhaps the informed public should be opposed to such laws. 1-3 are all political reasons why governments may want such laws about hotel guests.
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 24, 2016 at 1:37 pm
Oct 24, 2016, 2:32 pm
#7
Join Date: Jun 2009
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That is a sweeping generalization that is not representative of the legal requirements across the entire Schengen zone. I've checked into four hotels across two Schengen countries in the past several days, and there is no legal requirement for those hotels to verify and record the identity and nationality of all guests.
Even in Italy, they don't verify and record the identity and nationality of all guests on premises. Young Italian minors are hotel guests too, and they don't all have national ID/passports. Where is the Italian law that says that all Italian minors who are hotel guests must also submit national ID/passports? Legally, the Italian hotels do verify/record my passport info, but then I'm an adult US visitor at an Italian hotel and not an Italian minor at an Italian hotel.
Here is the Schengen treaty text:
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedo....ACQUIS-EN.pdf
Where exactly in there should we all be looking for this legal requirement of the Schengen treaty applicable to hotels? Title II Article 19. But then you have to actually go and look at what each of the separate Schengen countries have done and not done, as not all of them have done the same thing. Strictly speaking, Title II Article 19 is not applicable to hotels.
Even in Italy, they don't verify and record the identity and nationality of all guests on premises. Young Italian minors are hotel guests too, and they don't all have national ID/passports. Where is the Italian law that says that all Italian minors who are hotel guests must also submit national ID/passports? Legally, the Italian hotels do verify/record my passport info, but then I'm an adult US visitor at an Italian hotel and not an Italian minor at an Italian hotel.
Here is the Schengen treaty text:
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedo....ACQUIS-EN.pdf
Where exactly in there should we all be looking for this legal requirement of the Schengen treaty applicable to hotels? Title II Article 19. But then you have to actually go and look at what each of the separate Schengen countries have done and not done, as not all of them have done the same thing. Strictly speaking, Title II Article 19 is not applicable to hotels.
Title III, Article 45
The Contracting Parties undertake to take the measures required to guarantee that. :
a. the managers of establishments providing lodging or their employees ensure
that aliens accommodated therein, including nationals of the other Contracting
Parties as well as those of other Member States of the European Communities,
with the exception of accompanying spouses or minors or members of travel
groups, personally complete and sign declaration forms and confirm their
identity by the production of a valid identity document;
b. the declaration forms thus completed will be kept for the competent
authorities or forwarded to them where such authorities deem this necessary
for the prevention of threats, for criminal proceedings or to ascertain what has
happened to persons who have disappeared or who have been the victim of an
accident, save where national law provides otherwise.
The Contracting Parties undertake to take the measures required to guarantee that. :
a. the managers of establishments providing lodging or their employees ensure
that aliens accommodated therein, including nationals of the other Contracting
Parties as well as those of other Member States of the European Communities,
with the exception of accompanying spouses or minors or members of travel
groups, personally complete and sign declaration forms and confirm their
identity by the production of a valid identity document;
b. the declaration forms thus completed will be kept for the competent
authorities or forwarded to them where such authorities deem this necessary
for the prevention of threats, for criminal proceedings or to ascertain what has
happened to persons who have disappeared or who have been the victim of an
accident, save where national law provides otherwise.
Now, admittedly, the Schengen treaty is a requirement on the Member States themselves, and not on hotel guests or even on the hotels. So it's possible that the actual law still varies a little from country to country. Regardless, the Schengen treaty is binding, and I would not assume that any country is not legally in full compliance with Schengen (especially now with the refugee crisis)
Oct 24, 2016, 10:13 pm
#8
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Challenge accepted:
Members of tour groups, and spouses/minor children of the primary guest may be exempt, but everyone else must ID up.
Now, admittedly, the Schengen treaty is a requirement on the Member States themselves, and not on hotel guests or even on the hotels. So it's possible that the actual law still varies a little from country to country. Regardless, the Schengen treaty is binding, and I would not assume that any country is not legally in full compliance with Schengen (especially now with the refugee crisis)
Members of tour groups, and spouses/minor children of the primary guest may be exempt, but everyone else must ID up.
Now, admittedly, the Schengen treaty is a requirement on the Member States themselves, and not on hotel guests or even on the hotels. So it's possible that the actual law still varies a little from country to country. Regardless, the Schengen treaty is binding, and I would not assume that any country is not legally in full compliance with Schengen (especially now with the refugee crisis)
Let me help start people on research, to try to further corrrect the incorrect claim:
http://emn.ee/wp-content/uploads/201...ination_en.pdf
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 24, 2016 at 10:18 pm
Jan 1, 2019, 10:38 pm
#9
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,203
Passport Data - More Generally
I am resurrecting this thread. I originally asked this in the context of hotels use of passport copies.
Most of us try to protect our SSNs, bank account numbers, PINs, etc. I am now asking a broader question. Is there any data on the passport face page that can be used nefariously? The issue came to mind because I purchased a SIM in Costa Rica. The kiosk man used my passport number when activating the SIM card. (He jotted it down and then called in to activate the SIM.)
He then made a demonstration of destroying the paper and he emphatically stated to me "do not give this SIM card away if it has an unused balance...destroy it...because if someone does something illegal involving the SIM card, I will be the one identified".
That got me thinking. .How dangerous is it to have passport data floating around?
Best wishes for the New Year!
Most of us try to protect our SSNs, bank account numbers, PINs, etc. I am now asking a broader question. Is there any data on the passport face page that can be used nefariously? The issue came to mind because I purchased a SIM in Costa Rica. The kiosk man used my passport number when activating the SIM card. (He jotted it down and then called in to activate the SIM.)
He then made a demonstration of destroying the paper and he emphatically stated to me "do not give this SIM card away if it has an unused balance...destroy it...because if someone does something illegal involving the SIM card, I will be the one identified".
That got me thinking. .How dangerous is it to have passport data floating around?
Best wishes for the New Year!
Jan 2, 2019, 2:31 pm
#10
Join Date: Jul 2006
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At least with hotels most passport copies are stored on paper file, not digitally. I’m more concerned about the security of various online services that store many copies of passports (e.g. background check agencies, estate agents in the UK, and any website where you need to submit a copy to authenticate yourself - online banking or trading firms). A breach of such a database could be used to impersonate one to your email provider and gain access to your email. That’s often the key to then compromise your other accounts and digital wallets. Not sure what Google’s account recovery process is, but fairly certain it includes submitting ID such as a passport photo.
GDPR should help here, as data should only be held for as long as necessary, but there’s no way to be sure that hotels or online firms are complying with such requirements. And of course a moot point outside the EU.
Jan 3, 2019, 8:33 am
#11
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The passport biodata page can be used for nefarious purposes. I’ll elaborate again more on this later, but there is a reason there is an illicit market for passport biodata pages.
Jan 3, 2019, 9:31 am
#12
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Location: Dulles, VA
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US passports, on the face page, just have your pic, birth date and gender. I just put my state in as place of birth, so no indication of hometown. That's not a huge amount of info, less than most people have in their Facebook public profiles, but I still refrain from handing over any ID to anyone I don't have to. I always stay in Marriott properties and just give my Rewards number and the credit card I used for the on-line reservation as my proof that I am who I am. I show my DL to TSA and to the rental car company, and if it's an international trip them my passport at the boarding gate or at check-in, and for Immigration. Other than that, I don't show photo ID to pretty much anyone.
Jan 5, 2019, 4:44 am
#13
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At most German hotels I was never asked to show any form of ID. Most cities require the guest to sign a registration slip. But you can as well choose a fantasy name on it.
Most German hotels - this doesnt include these overpriced branded-hotels.
Most German hotels - this doesnt include these overpriced branded-hotels.
Jan 7, 2019, 12:57 pm
#14
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PDX
Posts: 908
Recently, I was in Germany on a business trip, and I have to mention that every hotel asked for my ID. They did not specifically insist on a passport (I gave them my US driver's license), but they let me know that not providing any piece of ID was not an option.
Jan 7, 2019, 5:45 pm
#15
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
I am resurrecting this thread. I originally asked this in the context of hotels use of passport copies.
Most of us try to protect our SSNs, bank account numbers, PINs, etc. I am now asking a broader question. Is there any data on the passport face page that can be used nefariously? The issue came to mind because I purchased a SIM in Costa Rica. The kiosk man used my passport number when activating the SIM card. (He jotted it down and then called in to activate the SIM.)
He then made a demonstration of destroying the paper and he emphatically stated to me "do not give this SIM card away if it has an unused balance...destroy it...because if someone does something illegal involving the SIM card, I will be the one identified".
That got me thinking. .How dangerous is it to have passport data floating around?
Most of us try to protect our SSNs, bank account numbers, PINs, etc. I am now asking a broader question. Is there any data on the passport face page that can be used nefariously? The issue came to mind because I purchased a SIM in Costa Rica. The kiosk man used my passport number when activating the SIM card. (He jotted it down and then called in to activate the SIM.)
He then made a demonstration of destroying the paper and he emphatically stated to me "do not give this SIM card away if it has an unused balance...destroy it...because if someone does something illegal involving the SIM card, I will be the one identified".
That got me thinking. .How dangerous is it to have passport data floating around?
Hopefully no vendor will give someone a SIM card without verifying that they are the holder of the passport number that is presented.
