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Crash Axes in the Cabin [follow up germanwings incident]

Crash Axes in the Cabin [follow up germanwings incident]

Old Mar 27, 2015, 12:31 pm
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Crash Axes in the Cabin [follow up germanwings incident]

Originally Posted by JDiver
I think it wise not to post a specific location of a crash axe in the cabin... If there is one.
Because of course only passengers would misuse an axe ...

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ain/4323166/1/

Clearly the ax is not that useful if it cannot break down the cockpit door very easily. But it is fun to play with.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 12:53 pm
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Originally Posted by johnden
Because of course only passengers would misuse an axe ...

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ain/4323166/1/

Clearly the ax is not that useful if it cannot break down the cockpit door very easily. But it is fun to play with.
Crash axes in passenger cabins were banned on common carrier passenger flights in/to/from the US, at least after 9/11, on order of the US. This had put some European carriers in a pickle at least in late 2001 and 2002, as various regulators in Europe still required a crash axe in the passenger cabin on flights subject to their home country regulators even as the US had banned them.

The current national regulations regarding in-flight safety equipment mandates for the passenger cabin, which in some cases includes a crash axe, are public information in many a market. The safety equipment regulations applicable to this Germanwings flight are also public information.

I can't recall a single instance in the FT era where a crash axe in the passenger cabin of a common carrier has been useful for escape in the event of a crash. The crash axe in the cockpit has been useful, but even that has been primarily or exclusively for purposes other than escaping in the event of a crash. A crash axe won't work to bust through the kind of reinforced cockpit door of this Germanwings flight, at least not in the ten or so minutes between when both pilots were in the cockpit and when the plane crashed with one pilot locked out of the cockpit.

Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 27, 2015 at 1:20 pm
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 1:59 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Crash axes in passenger cabins were banned on common carrier passenger flights in/to/from the US, at least after 9/11, on order of the US. This had put some European carriers in a pickle at least in late 2001 and 2002, as various regulators in Europe still required a crash axe in the passenger cabin on flights subject to their home country regulators even as the US had banned them.

The current national regulations regarding in-flight safety equipment mandates for the passenger cabin, which in some cases includes a crash axe, are public information in many a market. The safety equipment regulations applicable to this Germanwings flight are also public information.

I can't recall a single instance in the FT era where a crash axe in the passenger cabin of a common carrier has been useful for escape in the event of a crash. The crash axe in the cockpit has been useful, but even that has been primarily or exclusively for purposes other than escaping in the event of a crash. A crash axe won't work to bust through the kind of reinforced cockpit door of this Germanwings flight, at least not in the ten or so minutes between when both pilots were in the cockpit and when the plane crashed with one pilot locked out of the cockpit.
I'll have to search around for a link but I clearly recall hearing or reading that one of the tests that has been conducted on cockpit doors is a hand grenade and other small explosives taped to the door. The thought being that a potential highjacker might have found a way to sneak explosives onto the plane.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 2:12 pm
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> I clearly recall hearing or reading that one of the tests that has been conducted on
> cockpit doors is a hand grenade and other small explosives taped to the door.

Correct. The doors have been designed and demonstrated to be resistant to bullets, fragmentation grenades and grenade blast damage.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 3:13 pm
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The crash axe isn't a crash axe. It us a fire axe (official name) used to access areas needed to spray BCF (halon) extinguishers into , such as removing a cabin wall panel, IFE box, passenger brief case etc etc etc. it isn't meant to be used to chop your way through doors or fuselage to escape/ gain entry/exit.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 3:42 pm
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Originally Posted by ACARS
The crash axe isn't a crash axe. It us a fire axe (official name) used to access areas needed to spray BCF (halon) extinguishers into , such as removing a cabin wall panel, IFE box, passenger brief case etc etc etc. it isn't meant to be used to chop your way through doors or fuselage to escape/ gain entry/exit.
The axe used to be meant to do things which you say it isn't meant to do -- indeed some things which it can no longer do.

Originally Posted by gqZJzU4vusf0Z2,$d7
> I clearly recall hearing or reading that one of the tests that has been conducted on
> cockpit doors is a hand grenade and other small explosives taped to the door.

Correct. The doors have been designed and demonstrated to be resistant to bullets, fragmentation grenades and grenade blast damage.
And yet these doors can still be removed.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 3:45 pm
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Originally Posted by ACARS
The crash axe isn't a crash axe. It us a fire axe (official name) used to access areas needed to spray BCF (halon) extinguishers into , such as removing a cabin wall panel, IFE box, passenger brief case etc etc etc. it isn't meant to be used to chop your way through doors or fuselage to escape/ gain entry/exit.
Different terminology is used on opposite sides of the pond.
Federal Aviation Regulations Sec. 91.513 Emergency equipment.

(e) Each airplane accommodating more than 19 passengers must be equipped with a crash axe.
Government Publications source
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 3:50 pm
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Originally Posted by TWA884
There is indeed difference in terminology. Yet crash axe is language used on both sides of the pond. Martinair, for example, had a regulatory run in over this in 2002, and their proposed language used "crash axe or crowbar" at the time.

http://www.jaa.nl/secured/Operations...0NPA-1_795.doc
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 4:59 pm
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I'll never forget this newspaper clipping; wish I saved a copy.

Some time ago, 70's or 80's an African (Ethiopean?) airliner was at cruise. The pilot came out of the cockpit followed by the copilot. Who was flying the airplane? Why, the autopilot.

They hit some turbulence and the cockpit door slams shut and locks. Fortunately, it was not the modern reinforced door and they used a crash axe, fire axe, whatever they use in Africa axe to gain cockpit entry just before entering Libyan airspace. Which would not have been pretty.

I cannot find a citation on the web but I swear I saw the newspaper clipping!

Jim
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