n4zhg

Yup. The link is to a clip that cuts off right at that point, which was silly but oh, well.

I think it's a good choice because those two Australian officers were executed for following British orders. The relationship to our situation with TSA should be obvious.

nachtnebel

I agree with most of what you've said in your post, but what you say above must be refined a bit. It cannot simply be on the whim of the TSA (well, "I" believe such a search was necessary) or else we are right back to where we are now. It must be based on criteria that could pass constitutional muster. I would say have an on-site legal determination involving the right to counsel to argue on your behalf. I know that sounds a bit heavy, but then again, nothing that YOU would not want if it was your crotch at stake.

ScatterX

Totally agree. I said as much in previous post. The rationale for any invasive search must pass Constitutional muster as decided by somebody other than TSA. The fox's opinion is pretty meaningless to the chickens.

RichardKenner

I agree that searches need to pass "Constitutional muster", but I'd be against making a rigid, pre-defined set of criteria. I think that real security depends on "hunches" and "gut feelings".

I met a guy a few years ago who was ex-special-forces (not US) and worked at the time for UN Security. He was one of the folks who would ride on the outside of the car the Secretary General was riding in and watch the crowds. Exactly twice in his career, he said he saw something he didn't like and jumped off and tackled a guy. Both times the guy had a gun (that he hadn't pulled yet) and was planning to attack his protectee. I asked him to describe what made him suspicious and all he could say was "he didn't look right" (of course, I have no way to verify this person's story).

Whether or not TSOs have the training, experience, and temperment to be able to have "hunches" is an open question, but I think that in an ideal security world, they should be encouraged to rely on such things.

nachtnebel

Richard, maybe, MAYBE, I'd be willing to accept judgement of a highly trained, highly intelligent and experienced person a la' the Israeli screeners to determine this, and this is a big maybe. I'd have to see how that worked out in practice. But those TSA (I'm biting my tongue NOT to say dumb*sses) agents? not on your life...

Lara21

I do have one little question. How does a TSA Agent go on a hunch or a gut feeling about just one person at a time with this idea planted in their minds, by the TSA and DHS, that every single person in the airport, with a plane ticket, is up to something?

MikeMpls

To "pass Constitutional muster", you need an articulable suspicion or reasonable cause. Whimsy won't cut it.

reft

It also depends on the goal here. A body guard's goal is to protect the principle, not to get a conviction. Secondary to that is to do so legally.

Is there information missing here? Such as the number of innocent folks that were tackled just because they looked funny? Most people probably have a very vivid memory of the last time a smoke detector went off because the dwelling they were in was on fire. Things are likely more fuzzy about the last false alarm.

Wally Bird

In the real security world what you call a hunch is the result of thorough training (OK, indoctrination), practice, experience and above all, an innate aptitude.

Serious intelligence agencies don't simply recruit people from the street, give them a few hours of instruction and turn them loose. I don't know how the TSA decides who is qualified, if indeed they even do, to be a BDO, but I don't think their (lack of) competence is an open question at all.

milepig

File a complaint. At least according to the news report I saw last night the TSA is not allowed to go under your clothing, and if your report that they put their fingers inside your pants is correct they overstepped their bounds.

boiflyer

Here are some noteworthy transcriptions from my patdown and discussion with the airport police. Warning, SSI .


Notable Dialog During Grape™ (3-striper was female observer):
boiflyer: will you be touching my testicles today sir?
3-striper: no he will not.
boiflyer: okay.
<snip>
tso: i'm going to be placing my hand on your inner thigh and go up until i meet resistance.
boiflyer: okay, you just touched my anus, sir. you didn't tell me you were going to touch my anus. i just want to know what is being done to me. nobody told me they were going to touch my anus.
tso: i told you i was going to be placing my hand on your inner thigh and go up. can't you deduce that?
boiflyer: no. i can't deduce that you were going to touch my anus.
<snip>

Interesting Conversation with Boise Airport Police
BAP: when you fly, your rights stop on that other side
boiflyer: my...my constitutional rights stop?
BAP: you don't have no constitutional rights here, okay
boiflyer: I do....ah...excuse me
BAP: you don't have the right to sit there and not go through the tsa. you don't have to fly. they don't have to let you fly.
boiflyer: no, no, I understand that, but.
BAP: if you don't want to go through the process, then you can just leave. that's all, that's all there is to it. once you go through here, then they have the right to do that, okay?
<snip>

Comment: The LEO was a nice enough guy, so to his credit he did have this to say.
BAP: believe me, i understand how you feel. and, I'm no fan of whatever was done.

The people involved were "nice enough", it was Christmas morning afterall. Nobody really pulling a power trip. But the 3-striper blatantly lying really peeves me . I'm also glad to know "deducing" things is a reasonable excuse .

The LEO was a nice enough guy. Probably stuck working Christmas morning. Maybe he didn't have his coffee. But, it's too bad the day has come where LEOs think the Constitution doesn't apply in certain areas and/or circumstances. Not that I would expect any average LEO to be a Constitutional lawyer, but I guess I'm just disappointed in his assertion.

I'm also still trying to figure out, why was I "randomly" selected out of the WTMD line.
Was it really just random?
Was it because I stood at the x-ray conveyor belt watching my things for 30 seconds to make sure they were in the machine before I proceeded to the WTMD.
Or, was it because the female that "randomly" selected me was helping her friend in the nudie booth catch a view of my schlong?

Real. Security. Theater.

RichardKenner

Read what I wrote. Amazingly enough, if the person was to be believed, that number was zero.

And all news reports are 100% correct, right? The current pat-down procedure has the TSO running their fingers around the waistline: that's now been quite well documented.

rgfloor

But!............But.........according to the TSA they are "clearing" the waistband of your trousers or skirt, not going under the clothing or touching the skin.

Kinda sounds like splitting hairs!!

RichardKenner

Theoretically, at least, that's also the TSA's mission.

If you're not wearing underwear, then it's clearly touching the skin.

PhoenixRev

While the BAP maybe a nice guy, he needs to go take a Constitutional law class.

The Fofana case clearly demonstrated that you do not give up your Fourth Amendment rights when going through airport security if the TSA is on a fishing expedition. For the BAP to say that you relinquish your constitutions rights is patently false.

The TSA is spewing yet another lie in order to defend itself. When I take my flights, I usually wear relaxed fit jeans with a belt and a pull over shirt. Due to the shape of my butt, I constantly have my underwear band slip down below my crack of my butt (yes, I would be a very successful plumber). It simply is a fact of life for me and I have become used to it. So, the waist band of my jeans is kept snug on my waistline by the belt and directly touches the skin. It would be impossible for anyone to run their fingers around my waistband without directly touching my skin.

Even if I didn't have a belt, I wear my jeans pretty tight around my waist so there is no possible way for the denim to be pulled that far out so that they could clear the waistband with their fingers without putting their grimy fingers on my skin.

Liars to the end.