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How many TSO's, LTSO'S, STSO'S, Leo's, BDO's etc. are on this forum?

How many TSO's, LTSO'S, STSO'S, Leo's, BDO's etc. are on this forum?

Old Oct 15, 2010, 8:46 am
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by LessO2
Few, if any, here will argue about the TSA's actions both in their SOP and some individuals.

The question is why can't we discuss this in a civil manner?
Civility has been tried, and failed.

Clearly the TSO sees no reason to discuss things like rational adults. OUR WAY OR YOU DON'T FLY!!!! isn't acting like rational adults. Telling us that they will not discuss procedures because it would be "handing the playbook to the terrorists" is just plain stupid.

Do it our way and there will be no problems isn't how you open discussion about anything.

Yet the TSA does this all the time, from the top down to their TSOs.

Unless we meet the hostility of the TSA with hostility of our own (not FT by itself, but collectively), they will continue to walk all over us.

Its been proven that those TSOs who have been civil here (and 99% of the time that civility has been recriprocated) get spoken to by their superiors. That's even more messed up.

I'm skeptical that a civil TSO here is the exception, not the rule. Certain interactions with them here by me have made that even more clear to me.

I'm angry, and I don't have to put up with the TSA any longer. I will, loudly, proclaim to anyone who will listen just what the TSA isn't doing and that the only way to effect change will be to make sure that our elected dimwits get the point, and if that means storming the castle with pitchforks and torches, so be it. If that means that we're less than polite with a TSO, well, they should grow a thicker skin or find new employment.

Its not personal. None of these individuals have done anything to me personally. Hell, I'd probably enjoy a beer with them if they weren't TSOs.

But that's the point. They are the public face of a goverment farce. And I cannot any longer be polite to that government farce, especially when it's clearly wasted MY money.

If that makes me a pariah, then so be it. I can take it.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 9:17 am
  #62  
 
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Originally Posted by Cholula
That's a start. Thanks.

Anybody else willing to take The Pledge??
I pledge to be more civil, I think this is a great idea.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 9:27 am
  #63  
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Originally Posted by PhoenixRev
+1
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
I'm fine with the pledge, but that pledge of respect for the individual must go both ways.
Originally Posted by gatelouse
Most certainly
Originally Posted by essxjay
Count me formally in.
Originally Posted by FetePerfection
In that case, I'm in
Originally Posted by N965VJ
Im in.
Originally Posted by IslandBased
I pledge to be more civil, I think this is a great idea.
Thanks folks.

We're not asking anybody to love and embrace the TSA. Far from it.

We're simply trying to make this forum a more hospitable place for all to discuss travel safety and security issues. And that includes treating your fellow FT'ers with dignity and respect....the same way you'd like to be treated.

This has nothing to do about your opinion of the TSA, your experiences at the airport, your politics, religion or sex. It's all about how we act and interact in this little corner of FlyerTalk
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 5:15 pm
  #64  
 
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Originally Posted by IslandBased
In my mind TSA is looking for a needle in a haystack with a Bulldozer.
Somehow I think there might be a more effective approach.
Hmmm, interesting. Insightful, please elaborate.

I have asked several times here for viable ideas that would provide better security than we have now, yet have received none. Please, please, be the first.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 5:18 pm
  #65  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
I have asked several times here for viable ideas that would provide better security than we have now, yet have received none. Please, please, be the first.
What to do with the TSA short term-

1. Full accountability of TSA employees, with levels of discipline up to and including termination.

2. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screening clerks, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today? The fact that the TSA has publicly stated that customer service is not a priority in its Engage! training is appalling.

3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.

4. End the Shoe Carnival. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.

5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.

6. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.

7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting.

8. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with a fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.

9. Kill LASP dead in its tracks. There is no reason whatsoever the TSA should encroach on General Aviation. This is nothing more than a back channel way for the airlines and the Air Transport Association to make GA less of a viable alternative.

10. End the mission creep. What on earth was the mayor of TPA thinking when he asked the TSA to provide junk science screening clerks at the Super Bowl? What do sporting events have to do with transportation? The junk science SPOT program also gets the boot.

11. Stop the use and deployment of Nude-O-Scopes. They don't see into body cavities or detect explosives, are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses. All that is needed is WTMD, x-ray, and ETD/ETP.

12. The wearing of metal LEO style badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screening clerks name and identification number that is plainly visible.

13. Eliminate theatrics like the TSA Honor Guard. There is no need for screening clerks to dress up in silly costumes and parade around.

14. Stop any consideration of having screening clerks armed with firearms, or having any LEO powers.

What to do with the TSA long term-

The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the DOT or FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 5:55 pm
  #66  
 
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Originally Posted by N965VJ
What to do with the TSA short term-

1. Full accountability of TSA employees, with levels of discipline up to and including termination.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
2. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screening clerks, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today? The fact that the TSA has publicly stated that customer service is not a priority in its Engage! training is appalling.
While this also has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public, its a position that I can agree with and support. TSA has made several forays into this area in my tenure with them, but more is needed.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.
Enhancing the security of the flying public, not degrading it.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
4. End the Shoe Carnival. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.
Again, enhancing security. Your right though, the x-ray machine cannot detect explosives. It can however detect anomalies in shoes, which will lead to other types of investigations that CAN detect explosives.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.
Actually, in part the members of FT are to blame for this one. You folks have been screaming for more than a year that I personally am aware of about the possibilities of some unscreened airport workforce member being able to hand off dangerous prohibited items to passengers post-checkpoint, this technique address that minor flaw in the system. You asked for it, and now that you have it you dont like it? Ever hear the term Be careful what you ask for?

Originally Posted by N965VJ
6. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.
Having seen the actual no-fly list, Id say that you ask the impossible. The majority of the folks listed there are not US citizens, do not reside in the USA, and therefore cannot be arrested by US authorities. Those that are, well they cant be arrested unless they commit a crime, and being a threat to aviation is believe it or not, not a crime. Better to tell them to walk, dont ya think?

Originally Posted by N965VJ
7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting.
Verifying that the individual who is holding the boarding pass is the individual it was meant for is a security step. And gee, it only takes about 30 seconds of your time.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
8. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with a fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.
Yes, and we TSOs are citizens just like you. We fulfill one of our civic duties by reporting suspected criminal activity to the appropriate authorities. You want us to stop doing that? First please ask all of your neighbors, then get back to us with their reactions.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
9. Kill LASP dead in its tracks. There is no reason whatsoever the TSA should encroach on General Aviation. This is nothing more than a back channel way for the airlines and the Air Transport Association to make GA less of a viable alternative.
Opinions vary on this. I dont know enough about it to really comment, and I get the feeling that neither do you.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
10. End the mission creep. What on earth was the mayor of TPA thinking when he asked the TSA to provide junk science screening clerks at the Super Bowl? What do sporting events have to do with transportation? The junk science SPOT program also gets the boot.
There is no such thing as mission creep. Transportation Security Administration. As for the Super Bowl, Im going to refer you to the local police department that requested TSAs assistance. And on SPOT, you can believe what you like about it, I see it work every day. Not only is it viable, its effective.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
11. Stop the use and deployment of Nude-O-Scopes. They don't see into body cavities or detect explosives, are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses. All that is needed is WTMD, x-ray, and ETD/ETP.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public. We are not going to get rid of an effective technology because a few folks believe that there are problems with it. Bring some facts to the table, peer reviewed and validated and you might have an argument.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
12. The wearing of metal LEO style badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screening clerks name and identification number that is plainly visible.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public. You dont like it, I get it, lifes a rock.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
13. Eliminate theatrics like the TSA Honor Guard. There is no need for screening clerks to dress up in silly costumes and parade around.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public. If it makes them feel better about themselves then let em do it.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
14. Stop any consideration of having screening clerks armed with firearms, or having any LEO powers.
Enhancing the security of the flying public, not degrading it.

Originally Posted by N965VJ
What to do with the TSA long term-

The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the DOT or FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
DOT, been there, done that. Also, I have seen these private contractors. You have absolutely no idea what you are asking for. The organized rings of theft and general thuggery would expand exponentially. Funny how you cant hear things when you are not listening.

Originally Posted by Cholula
That's a start. Thanks.

Anybody else willing to take The Pledge??
Please add my name to the list.

I try, lord knows I try, but I am not perfect.

But as another poster said, I will not toss softballs. If someone makes a dumb statement, I will try harder to explain why its dumb rather than just calling it dumb and leaving it at that.

Last edited by Kiwi Flyer; Oct 22, 2010 at 10:13 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 6:18 pm
  #67  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
I have asked several times here for viable ideas that would provide better security than we have now, yet have received none. Please, please, be the first.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your participation. Thanks for keeping the posts coming.

That said, I must disagree with the premise of your question. Security shouldn't be a be-all, end-all goal that outweighs all other factors. Security should be balanced against other equally compelling factors: financial cost and civil liberties come to mind. A holistic approach to security analyzes all of these factors and sets limits on TSA's authorities with the big picture in mind.

It appears that the majority on this board feel that TSA is currently skewed too far toward absolute security, or the perception thereof. Many here are willing to accept less security in exchange for greater personal rights, convenience, and thrift...especially those who understand that airport screening is only a small part of the larger, counter-terrorism picture.

In short, I'm all in favor of ideas that increase convenience and personal dignity with minimal increases to risk.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 7:39 pm
  #68  
 
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Originally Posted by gatelouse
Security shouldn't be a be-all, end-all goal that outweighs all other factors. Security should be balanced against other equally compelling factors: financial cost and civil liberties come to mind. A holistic approach to security analyzes all of these factors and sets limits on TSA's authorities with the big picture in mind.
1. There is no limit to TSA's authority - we can do whatever we think might make people safer (or feel safer).
2. Cost is no object.
3. **** Civil Liberties - We're out to catch Tewwowists!
(of course, we've never actually caught one yet, we just need to spend more money and get more people)

4. It's for your own good - quit whining!


Last edited by essxjay; Oct 21, 2010 at 4:02 pm Reason: bypassing profanity filters
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 8:24 pm
  #69  
 
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for some, obviously the only way to 'enhance' security is just to add more to the existing theatre.

For others, it requires a critical look at, and risk analysis of what is currently being done - keeping the elements proven to reduce risk for a reasonable cost, abandoning the rest and perhaps implementing other strategies not currently in use - like screening at the same level for all persons entering the 'sterile' area (an oxymoron if ever there was one) as one example.

But as posted dismissively above, in regard to a response to enhancing security - handing out tin badges to clerks, employing clerks with attitude, checking someone has a drivers licence etc, etc does nothing to enhance security either, yet the TSA introduced it and trumpets it as somehow useful.

None of these things happen at our airports.

Yes Australia and Australian's have been the target of terrorist activity.

Yes it probably will happen again.

We prefer to take a risk/benefit approach to security - not a theatrical one.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 8:30 pm
  #70  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
I have asked several times here for viable ideas that would provide better security than we have now, yet have received none. Please, please, be the first.
Originally Posted by N965VJ
What to do with the TSA short term-

1. Full accountability of TSA employees, with levels of discipline up to and including termination.

2. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screening clerks, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today? The fact that the TSA has publicly stated that customer service is not a priority in its Engage! training is appalling.
Originally Posted by TSORon
Sorry, this has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public.

While this also has nothing to do with enhancing the security of the flying public, its a position that I can agree with and support. TSA has made several forays into this area in my tenure with them, but more is needed.
Ron, you asked what would provide for better security, not enhanced security.

Since you seem to agree on point #2 about making TSA a more customer focused organization, how could you not agree that his first point goes hand in hand with the second? Please tell me how you can expect to effectively manage an organization without applying discipline, up to and including termination, when appropriate. When those agents that make life miserable for the average passenger (and I'm not talking about the folks that automatically bristle and puff up at the mere mention of TSA) are properly dealt with, in will be a start in making TSA a better agency.

It has always amazed me how many federal, state, and local government employees manage to keep their jobs for doing things that would get a private sector employee fired in a heart beat. N965VJ is spot on that stating TSO should be held responsible for their actions. If administrative discipline and re-training doesn't fix the issue, then termination is the only option. As with any government agency, we all know that everything is done in baby steps, and that is one that needs to be put at the top of the priority list.
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Old Oct 15, 2010, 10:00 pm
  #71  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
I have asked several times here for viable ideas that would provide better security than we have now, yet have received none. Please, please, be the first.
1. Return to the security protocols of 9/10/01 as there is nothing the TSA does today that would have prevented 9/11/01.

2. Take the money that would be saved by returning to those protocols (no more NoS, no more TDCs, no more gate checkers, etc.) and funnel that money directly into intelligence gathering to discover dangers to the system well before they erupt into fruition.
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Old Oct 16, 2010, 7:50 am
  #72  
 
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Originally Posted by gatelouse
I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your participation. Thanks for keeping the posts coming.
My pleasure, but I have the feeling that many of our fellow FTers would disagree.

Originally Posted by gatelouse
That said, I must disagree with the premise of your question. Security shouldn't be a be-all, end-all goal that outweighs all other factors. Security should be balanced against other equally compelling factors: financial cost and civil liberties come to mind. A holistic approach to security analyzes all of these factors and sets limits on TSA's authorities with the big picture in mind.
I would tend to agree with the basics of your statement, and I believe that the TSA adheres to such a principal. The problem comes when one tries to set a standard. If you read some of the comments in posts below yours you will see what I mean. Everyone seems to have their own ideas on how things should be done, and it’s very rare that any two are alike. But a standard must be set, a line where we will not go past, and someone must set that standard. Many are not going to agree with where that line is placed, some vehemently so, but there are folks who have the responsibility to set that standard and to do so while taking into account all of the wide and various factors that affect it. It’s easy to second guess them, and many here do, but they do so without the background, intel, experience, or responsibility that those who actually have to set that standard have.

Originally Posted by gatelouse
It appears that the majority on this board feel that TSA is currently skewed too far toward absolute security, or the perception thereof. Many here are willing to accept less security in exchange for greater personal rights, convenience, and thrift...especially those who understand that airport screening is only a small part of the larger, counter-terrorism picture.

In short, I'm all in favor of ideas that increase convenience and personal dignity with minimal increases to risk.
Many of the folks here are willing to place their fellow citizens at significant risk in exchange for their own personal versions of rights, convenience and personal dignity. But they don’t bear any responsibility for that decision, they don’t have the background or experience to make the decision, and they really don’t give a dam that they don't have any of it.

We vote for our leaders. Hopefully we vote for the one’s who’s views equal our own or at the very least seem reasonable to us. By voting for them we trust them to make appropriate decisions about a vast number of things that directly affect our lives. And these are the folks who bear the responsibility for the decisions concerning how government interacts with its citizens and how government serves its citizens. These are the folks that set policy, including TSA policy, for all levels of government. We trust them to make rational and appropriate decisions, yet it always seems that one group or another disagrees with their decisions. OK, if so then it’s the responsibility of that group to have someone else elected to those offices who will change policy to something more to their liking. That’s our responsibility, to hold our leaders accountable for their decisions on our behalf. Yet more than 75% of our fellow citizens refuse to do so by not voting. Just who’s fault is that?
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Old Oct 16, 2010, 12:17 pm
  #73  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Many of the folks here are willing to place their fellow citizens at significant risk in exchange for their own personal versions of rights, convenience and personal dignity. But they don’t bear any responsibility for that decision, they don’t have the background or experience to make the decision, and they really don’t give a dam that they don't have any of it.
1. I am perplexed as to how you became the arbiter in determining if people have the background or experience to make these decisions. What special background, experience and training do you have that seats you as the judge of who has the credentials to make those decisions? In any event, I doubt you have the full dossier of each person on this board to make a determination as I can guarantee you that every single person who posts on this forum has not disclosed everything about themselves.

2. Your statement deriding those that would "place fellow citizens at significant risk in exchange for their own personal versions of rights, convenience and personal dignity" is directly at odds with the founding mechanics of this country. Fifty-six men in Philadelphia placed fellow citizens at significant risk in exchange for their own personal versions of rights, conveniences and personal dignity yet I never hear a word from those who are more than willing to give up their rights to feel safe talk about how terrible those 56 men were for doing such a thing.
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Old Oct 16, 2010, 3:44 pm
  #74  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Hmmm, interesting. Insightful, please elaborate.
Ok..

The needle= viable: terrorist / terrorist plot / USA bomb threat
The haystack= 4 billion+ passenger screenings by TSA
the bulldozer= TSA Modus operandi; now with improved, enhanced, turbo screening....

Found anything, yet?

Last edited by IslandBased; Oct 16, 2010 at 6:09 pm
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Old Oct 16, 2010, 4:15 pm
  #75  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Many of the folks here are willing to place their fellow citizens at significant risk in exchange for their own personal versions of rights, convenience and personal dignity. But they don’t bear any responsibility for that decision, they don’t have the background or experience to make the decision, and they really don’t give a dam that they don't have any of it. (emphasis added)
Don't take the bait, folks!

I challenge the assertion that folks on this board are willing to accept measures that add significant risk to security. Many have families. Enough said. A more accurate statement is that most of us believe that our ideas will result in zero to minimal/insignificant/acceptable additional risk.

I also challenge the assertion that folks on this board do not have the background or experience to make such decisions. I feel that anyone with a background in actuary, chemistry, psychology, medicine, computer security, military science, finance, or any of a number of analytic disciplines--combined with common sense, keen observation, and an awareness of current events--can make sound judgments on this issue. I suspect that includes most of us.

Security is just a variant on risk management, which shows up in most every professional field.
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