Pax lights fireworks on NW AMS-DTW flight

Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:45 am
  #151  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Hence the Behavior Detection Officers. But here at FT, if you read much here, they are "totally ineffectual", "a waste of taxpayer dollars", or "security theater".

In this forum, TSA just cannot win, no matter the measures it tries. Fair is not a word 99% of those posting here comprehend, but they sure can abuse it.
So how many terrorists have BDO's caught? The money spent on BDO's would be better allocated to making sure the TSA doesn't have such a high failure rate in Red Team tests. Or equipment that is researched carefully before we buy more white elephants like puffers. How about 100% of all checked luggage and cargo being screened.

If you want to "win" in these forums then the TSA needs to concentrate on their job. Stopping guns, knives, and explosives from getting on planes and forget the James Bond fantasies.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:46 am
  #152  
 
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Originally Posted by us2

".. New regs given to Finnair also say: no internet, no satphone calls, no P/A announcements from the flight deck about where the aircraft happens to be flying while in US airspace, and obviously no moving map displays either. Whats next? No in-flight entertainment at all unless unwanted functions can be disabled?"
The no map thing was confirmed by a UA flier this morning doing ICN-SFO. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...s-feature.html
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:47 am
  #153  
 
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It's very simple - while the whole security process is focused on preventing BAD LUGGAGE getting onto airplanes instead of stopping BAD PEOPLE, these sort of things will continue to happen.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:54 am
  #154  
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Originally Posted by unavaca
The no map thing was confirmed by a UA flier this morning doing ICN-SFO. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...s-feature.html
Without meaning to sound crass, what difference does it make to a terrorist who wants to blow a plane out of the sky where that plane is located when it goes boom? Blowing up US metal makes one's point, not where it was blown up.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:56 am
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
What should we do, based upon your conclusion? Stop attempting to interdict those who would do those things the like of which happened on 9/11?
Since you brought it up, again, Ron, please describe the one measure the TSA, & just the TSA, has taken that, had it been in place on 9/10/01 would have prevented those hijackings?
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 10:57 am
  #156  
 
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Originally Posted by Brit_flyer
It's very simple - while the whole security process is focused on preventing BAD LUGGAGE getting onto airplanes instead of stopping BAD PEOPLE, these sort of things will continue to happen.
Which is why the TSA should stick to luggage and let the FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, and other similar agencies who have the training and mandate to deal with stopping bad people.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:02 am
  #157  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
What should we do, based upon your conclusion? Stop attempting to interdict those who would do those things the like of which happened on 9/11? Trust to luck, god, or a roll of the dice?
First of all, stop rewarding terrorists by harassing millions of passengers after every terrorism attempt.

The 9/11 will never happen again because of the changed passenger reactions to hijacking. And as the shoe bomb and this new incident show, the passengers are quite efficient at that. How many bombs has the TSA caught at the checkpoint over these years?

Let's assume every passenger will have to arrive at the airport one hour earlier because of the new "security" measures. If we assume a life expectancy of 80 years, it will be 701280 hours. So one million passengers delayed by one hour is equivalent to at least one passenger being killed. You have to balance the lives saved by security measures against lives wasted in the airport queues.

Also focus on people, not objects. Saudi Arabia sponsors lots of Muslim schools all over the world which are rumored to produce terrorists. Why isn't the US sponsoring a network of similar schools promoting more peaceful versions of Islam? This would cost a lot less than the stupid war in Iraq cost. Fight the enemy with its own means.

It is sick that after every act of terrorism, I am scared not of terrorists killing me, but of the government making my life miserable with unnecessary security precautions.

Basically do the same thing the London Underground did after bombings:

We were very conscious of the fact that getting the system running was the thing that would make the system safest in that, if we didn't reward people with chaos, they would likely leave us alone
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:03 am
  #158  
 
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Originally Posted by txrus
Since you brought it up, again, Ron, please describe the one measure the TSA, & just the TSA, has taken that, had it been in place on 9/10/01 would have prevented those hijackings?
Well Ronnie, your the TSA expert, please answer the question. I'll give you a few you can take off the list:
1. Air crew no longer agrees to follow terrorists orders.
2. Cockpit doors are reinforced.
3. Passengers and crew fight back.
4. Pilots turn airplane into vomit comet.
5. No knives/box cutters on airplanes......Oh wait they shouldn't have been able to bring those onto the airplane on 9/10/01
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:10 am
  #159  
 
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
How do you identify a terrorist? Do you interrogate everyone or just the brown ones?

How about we use technology to eliminate WEI being carried aboard and be done with it?
Originally Posted by TSORon
Hence the Behavior Detection Officers. But here at FT, if you read much here, they are "totally ineffectual", "a waste of taxpayer dollars", or "security theater".

In this forum, TSA just cannot win, no matter the measures it tries. “Fair” is not a word 99% of those posting here comprehend, but they sure can abuse it.
I'm no 'behavior expert', but I can usually pick out which TSO will call for a bag check if I fail to take the liquids baggie out of my carry-on, and which ones will let it pass through.

You can tell a lot about someone's attitude and state of mind by observing their body language. Of course if you're in a rush you can just stereotype, it's faster.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:12 am
  #160  
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No time to read this entire thread, but wanted to point out something in an AP article that shows me the real agenda at work here (emphasis mine):

"King, the ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, said no federal air marshals were on the flights from Nigeria to Amsterdam and from Amsterdam to Detroit. Mutallab did not go through full-body image screening at either airport, the congressman said."

Anyone doubt the powers that be will use this in a push to have strip search the primary screening at every checkpoint in every airport?
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:16 am
  #161  
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Originally Posted by KRSW
If the pre-9/11 rules were followed by screeners on 9/11, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Is there any factual basis for this false statement? Have you read the 9/11 report and the statements by the head of the airilne pilots security committee?
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:21 am
  #162  
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Originally Posted by Sydneysider
No time to read this entire thread, but wanted to point out something in an AP article that shows me the real agenda at work here (emphasis mine):

"King, the ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, said no federal air marshals were on the flights from Nigeria to Amsterdam and from Amsterdam to Detroit. Mutallab did not go through full-body image screening at either airport, the congressman said."

Anyone doubt the powers that be will use this in a push to have strip search the primary screening at every checkpoint in every airport?
Does either airport even have WBI?

Peter King is a horse's patoot....

Last edited by doober; Dec 26, 2009 at 11:24 am Reason: just had to add my thoughts about King
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:22 am
  #163  
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Originally Posted by doober
Does either airport even have WBI?
I meant TSA will push for US deployment to protect against the terrists who may be operating here. Just in case, comrade!
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:24 am
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by doober
Does either airport even have WBI?
I think they will use this as an attempt to press for primary Nude-O-Scope screenings for every one.
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Old Dec 26, 2009, 11:26 am
  #165  
 
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I would bet that a lot of these random rules that were put in place immediately after this incident will be changed/standardized over the next week or so. And I doubt that they'll be as ridiculous as the ones that have been mentioned here that some airlines have apparently implenented (like no access to personal items or getting out of your seat for the last hr of the flight).

It's a shame that airlines that implemented the "1 carry on" rule still insist on gouging customers by requiring them to pay to check any extra bags they may have. With absolutely zero time for travellers to prepare for this, they should be waiving these fees.
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