Trollkiller

I am disturbed by the number of Chertoff infomercial editorials, the lack of balanced basic journalism and the regurgitation of TSA "facts" being forced on the American people.

We need to fight the misconception of the WBI being the end all be all to detect weapons, explosives and incendiaries before it is too late and an obscene amount of money is wasted on these worthless devices.

This thread is to discuss how to fight the WBI deployment.

This thread is NOT for discussing whether on not the TSA is looking for drugs, should be disbanded, or any of the other topics that lead to thread derailments. Please take those arguments to other threads.

I think the two issues we need to concentrate on are;

1. Ineffectiveness: The fact the WBI is unable to detect contraband hidden under the breast should be our main focus.
   
2. Invasion of privacy: The intrusiveness coupled with the ineffectiveness of the device makes the privacy lost to the WBI, too great for the minimal benefit.

Personally I think the health issue is too easy to beat to even bother with it. As long as the devices stay within operating norms the health risk is less than eating pickles.

After we get a sound argument on the two main issues then we have to figure out how to market the arguments and to whom we market them to.

us2

To me, the real issue is the implicit assumption that aircraft inflight are al-Qaeda's sole focus. We already have hard evidence through the first WTC bombing and the attack on the USS Cole that this is not the case. The WBI is a modern Maginot Line, designed to protect against the last threat.

The privacy issue is secondary, albeit significant. I find the notion of requiring people to submit to an electronic strip search to be repugnant. Someone with a colostomy or a catheter should not be required to reveal that to anyone, absent probable cause.

Good Guy

You have a hell of a fight. The local news this morning was interviewing folks at the airport who were all 100% behind the WBI's. Probably lack of information on their part, but will your voice get lost in the crowd?

Trollkiller

That is the purpose of this thread, how do WE make OUR voices heard? One person on the internet without an "expert" title will be quickly dismissed.

I know on this forum we have true experts on the technology short comings and privacy concerns.

triehle

I hope I am not violating the TOS here by cross-posting, but we do have a reputable poll on public opinion regarding WBI, here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...ion-nw253.html

47% favor nude-o-scope for ALL pax

I am a Washington pollster for policy issues and political campaigns, and one of the cardinal rules of my profession is this: If your campaign plan begins with "we need to educate the public about X," you have already lost.

If I were looking for a message and a target audience for the message, the message would be "with only a few exceptions (e.g., people with medical implants such as knee or hip replacements), pax will regret the influx of WBI because it will not make the security theater easier to transit, it will make it more difficult, intrusive and time-consuming." My target audience would be frequent travelers, especially corporate travel officials. But I would not bet the mortgage on winning this fight.

PFKMan23

The first thing is to change how we view the public. Calling them kettles and other such names does nothing to garner sympathy and instead leads to spite, resentment and other negative feelings that would hinder progress for true reform. The result of that is, your voice is most likely less effective than what it would have been if you hadn't had started in the first place.

The key to changing perception is to be able to better explain WHY these new measures are bad, ineffective and are not significant tools that make flying and society in general safer for the public. Once you answer those questions and can better garner mainstream support, then you can have progress.

Keep in mind that WBI is just a tool and not the root cause. If I was doing an op ed or some kind of a presentation, I might use it as a leading example, but I would not make that the bulk of the discussion.

Furthermore, talking to a grandma or a family that may fly once a year is vastly different than talking to a businessman who flies once a week. If you think that targeting FFs is more productive I understand that angle, but I heavily disagree. In these times you need the public and coming off as an arrogant group will not help at all.

Trollkiller

It is not a crosspost as the information is relevant to this discussion.

The problem with polls is how you set up the question. Take this one from the poll you cited.

Coming from a sales background I see they have set up a bias for accepting the WBI. By adding that it might have stopped the Undie-bomber pushes people that are on the fence or uneducated about the WBI over to the support column.

The proper way to set up the question for an unbiased answer would have been like this.

If the question was set up in an unbiased manner do you think the response would have been the same?

Do we need to commission a poll with unbiased questions in order to see where the public really stands on this issue?

If we are targeting just frequent travelers and corporate travel offices but the Government is using polls aimed at the general public to support their position, how do we fight that?

star_world

Start with focusing on facts. Where is the fact that this is true? In some cases, with the person at a particular angle they might not be able to detect an object. That's not a fact. You need to focus on facts, remember?

You mean how do YOU make your voice heard. And a small number of others. The fact is that the public is overwhelmingly in favour of this technology, rather than being physically mauled by strangers instead. That's what it replaces, remember?

I presume by "proper" you mean "biased"? Your "proper" version is just as biased as the one you were complaining about. SOME privacy advocates have complained about it. Define "many"? Oh wait, you can't - you just stuck that in there to get your message across. Maybe you'd rather be groped by a perverted TSA employee who can't wait to get their hands on you?

Trollkiller

Fact, the WBI does not see beneath the skin. Fact, if contraband is placed underneath the breast it can not be imaged by the WBIs. Fact, wearing a bra will keep the contraband from peeking out from the breast. Fact, no matter what angle you view the image contraband that is securely tucked under the breast will not be imaged.

For those that wish to be seen naked and have that knowledge before hand, please step right in. I won't think you a nut, a pervert or any other negative about you.

By proper I mean unbiased. I tried to edit the original set up for the question to be unbiased. The "Many privacy advocates have objected to them." statement came directly from the original set up.

I don't mind you disagreeing but please READ what I write before making replies. Even you should have caught the fact I only edited the original set up by copy/paste except where I changed the word "picture" for "image".

Trollkiller

Got it, calling people Kettles is bad even if you mean nothing negative by it.

I hesitate calling them causal travelers or something of that nature.

I agree we need the public because even if they don't fly this will effect them somewhere in the future on buses, trains, ships, or even the mall. FFers would be like preaching to the choir.

If trying to explain why the new measures are bad, how would you not make the WBIs the bulk. The other measures like staying in your seat for the last hour will go away on their own because they are unenforceable and insubstantial.

BubbaLoop

As an MD, I have to second that going for the health concern line is not going to get us anywhere. The real issue is that WBIs do not detect explosives. Unfortunately, I think the convincing way to get to people is to demonstrate that directly. Somehow get someone to get stuff in with a WBI scan. Unfortunately, getting in with a tube of toothpaste won't cut it here. It would probably only have any impact if it really was something threatening.

Either that, or we wait until they self-destruct due to excess lines, lack of maintenance or that pesky problem of having to resolve all those alarms set by breast prosthesis, sanitary napkins, adult diapers, catheters, insulin pumps, colostomies and leather undies...

Tom M.

I think educating the public on what will be required to clear passengers wearing adult diapers, colostomy bags etc.

The only way to effectively clear them will be to swab these items.

This is a problem for both the TSO's who will have to do the procedure (including BSI issues) and the passengers.

The truth I fear is that effective clearing won't happen, which will makes the whole thing a farce.

Trollkiller

By the way as long as we are here. According to that poll only 47% of the people surveyed were in favor of using this technology on everyone. That is hardly overwhelming. I believe that number would be even less if the question had left out the reference to the Undie-bomber and the biased "might have detected" portion of the set up.

RoyalFlush

The ACLU is definitely in the anti-WBI fight and has several blog pieces:



http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-se...-body-scanners

(I love that cartoon/graphic of the Statue of Liberty - sad but very very true)

and http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-se...known-unknowns

red456

I belong to an association that works with developmentally disabled adults. Many of our clients wear Depends or depend on implanted devices for their survival.

We normally take our clients on a nice trip once a year, often going by air. We have determined that we will no longer travel by air if it means our clients will have to pass through a body scanner or subject themselves to an invasive physical screening. Why? Because they cannot give truly informed consent to such procedures. It's been bad enough trying to get them to understand that they have to remove their shoes and they can't take that beloved can of Coke with them through a checkpoint, but trying to explain why they have to go into a box and hold their hands in the air or have a stranger feel them up has been the final straw.

Thank you so very much, TSA. You have diminished the quality of life for disabled people.