jkhuggins

#6, 11, 16, 24, 25.

milepig

In line at ORD yesterday, and elderly gentleman in a wheel chair had been pulled out of line and was being interviewed by a TSA agent who was actually very pleasant and helpful.

He had both a license and astate ID card, but both were expired, at which point she asked "do you have anything else, maybe a credit card". When he located a perfectly ordinary credit card - no photo on it - she let him through. I don't see what value the credit card added that the expired ID cards didn't. I also don't see "credit card" on the list of IDs that the TSA will accept.

She did kindly point out that the new Illinois ID card never expire and that he should get one.

mkenwayx

So here's a ? that we've gotten conflicting answers to.

From tsa.gov it looks like the answer's no...but the airlines said yes.

An older relative has an expired (by 2y) US state driver's license as she hasn't been able to drive recently, and doesn't have a state ID or passport. It's too late to get one for a potential upcoming trip.

What's the verdict??? Can she travel with it or not?

HSVTSO Dean

As far as TSA is concerned at the checkpoint, when you give us the photo ID/boarding pass at the TDC --

Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: IDs can be expired up to 12 months. Since her DL is expired by more than 24, then the answer is no.

Tom M.

I'm surprised that HSVTSO Dean did not endeavor to give a more complete answer to your question and attempt to provide you with information that might be useful to you.

While the expired DL will not be accepted, this does not mean she cannot travel. She can fly. The TSA will need to do some additional work, and the screening process will take longer, but she can fly without ID.

to HSVTSO Dean for failing to properly assist a traveler with a question.

coachrowsey

This is what 2 tso's here have told fwiw

u2beez

This is not true it's not even funny. I had expired id once about a year ago, and they did nothing. Ive forgotten my id many times and they havent done anything. Matter of fact, the expired id was looked at and no one said anything. The one thing the moron told me in New York was I wouldn't be able to come back from palm beach. At palm beach, they just let me through. No extra screening, no pop quiz.

TSA Moron: Id?
Me: Forgot
TSA: Go ahead

Get a grip, you'd make more money working at Wendy's, and respected.

HSVTSO Dean

Hah... Hah... hahaha... hahahaha... haha... hah...

Oh, lord. That's it. I'm gonna just walk away now. I draw the line at being ridiculed for giving a very specific answer to a very specific question.

Have fun.

SATTSO

Not to jump into the ID question, but I DO make MUCH more working for TSA, plus federal benefits. And your or anyones respect doesn't pay my rent, buy me food, etc...

Tom M.

Another TSO who needs remedial training in the TSA core values....

By the way the actual question was: "Can she travel with it or not?"

The correct answer is "Yes" and then an explanation that it should not be accepted, she doesn't need any ID at all to travel. You should have then gone on to explain the procedure.

So your "very specific answer" was wrong.

Cha-cha-cha

And this official TSA policy is specifically documented in writing and available to the public ... where?

gj83

North Carolina does not take old licenses when a new license is applied for so it is possible for someone to have a fully valid looking license for 2 states...so much for RealID...

SirFlysALot

Little old ladies? Is the TSA worried about the Gray Panthers ?

pmocek

Of course she can travel with it. She can't travel with an 8" screwdriver or 4oz of shampoo (unless it's split into two containers, then placed in a resealable plastic bag), but as far as we can tell, there's no restriction on traveling with an expired driver license.

TSA refuses to publish the rules passengers are required to follow. Best we can tell, no documentation of identity is required, much less a particular type.

Here's what I've been able to find out:

What are the rules concerning airline passenger identification by TSA?

Although TSA refuses to publish all the rules they require passengers to follow at airport checkpoints, from what we can distill from TSA press releases, heavily-redacted information obtained via FOIA requests, TSA blog posts, and other information they publish on the Web, it's relatively clear that your boarding pass is all the documentation that's ever required for domestic flights. It seems that passengers are not required to present documentation of their identities to TSA staff, and that doing so is not a condition of crossing the TSA checkpoint.

TSA won't publish the rules we're supposed to follow. So what do we know about their I.D. policies?

According to a 2008 press release from TSA, TSA's airport passenger identification policy changed on June 21, 2008, but "showing I.D." was seemingly not required before and is seemingly not required now.

Prior to June 21, 2008

Before June 21, 2008, the situation seemed to be: In order to proceed to the "secure area" of an airport after being stopped at a TSA barricade, each passenger must submit to a pat-down and search for metallic objects using a hand-held metal detector, along with a hand-searching of any carry-on baggage, unless he presents documentation of his identity (i.e., unless he "shows I.D."), in which case he must submit only to a search for metallic objects on his person via walk-through metal detector and search of any carry-on baggage using an X-ray machine.

In other words: back then, showing I.D. simply got you a less-thorough search than you'd otherwise receive.

Now

Beginning June 21, 2008, the situation seems to be: Each passenger still has the option of showing I.D. and participating in the less-thorough searches (walk-through metal detector and X-raying of carry-ons), but the alternative now involves not only being thoroughly searched for dangerous items, but also identifying oneself verbally and participating in an interrogation intended to verify one's identity (via phone call from Homeland Security headquarters). Chillingly, it seems from the aforementioned TSA press release that this alternative also requires that someone be "cooperative with officers". What that cooperation entails is not defined.

Initial reports from TSA indicated that while people who claimed that their government-issued I.D. card was misplaced or stolen would be allowed to take the alternate route through the checkpoint (with the questioning), those who willfully refused to show their papers would be barred from proceeding. It's unclear whether or not this is still the case, or if it was ever the case, as TSA's initial press release seems, based on information received from TSA via Freedom of Information Act request, to have been inaccurate.

Summary of present situation and how to exploit it

In short, best we can tell, complying with TSA's "papers, please!" request is not necessary in order to fly domestically, it's simply a way to avoid the hassle of a thorough search for dangerous items, the hassle of providing convincing information in support of your claim to be who you say you are, and having to cooperate with TSA airport staff in any manner they see fit.

This is a great system for people who wish to do harm in airports or on airplanes, since getting a falsified identification document (i.e., a "fake I.D.") is relatively simple, and presentation of one almost guarantees that TSA staff will look at someone with less scrutiny, making it easier for him to take weapons, explosives, or incendiaries past the security checkpoint. Even if TSA could detect such fraud with perfect accuracy, using the Carnival Booth Algorithm, terrorists can probe an identity-based security system like TSA's by sending a number of people on harmless trips through the system, noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. Then they can send those who aren't flagged -- people who almost certainly will get through security with a less-thorough search -- on terrorist missions.

Why does TSA want to identify us? What's wrong with them doing so?

This isn't about your safety. It's about control -- a few people's control over the rest of us.

The primary reason that TSA wants to know who you are is their desire to restrict people's movement based on Homeland Security blacklists. As did every government that has imposed totalitarian rules, TSA repeatedly tells us that their freedom-restricting policies are about safety, security, and rooting out subversives. Of course, this policy is really about extra-judicial punishment, allowing our executive branch of government to sidestep our judicial branch and punish someone for any reason or no reason at all. That's not the way things are supposed to work in the United States. It's ripe for abuse, and it's an infringement on our freedom.

For more on showing I.D. in the general sense, please see the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing I.D.?" page.

Previous discussion on FlyerTalk

For more on TSA airport I.D. policies, see also the following FT threads (the first of which is what brought me to FlyerTalk for the first time):

• 2008-04-08: Article:No ID needed to board plane
• 2008-05-01: new info from TSA re: airlines requesting ID
• 2008-05-01: does the law/courts say ID is not required to...
• 2008-06-06: Starting June 21: Refuse to Show ID, No Entry to Sterile Area
• 2008-06-09: Actually, it looks like you can still fly without ID
• 2008-06-11: TSA blog addresses the new airport ID rule
• 2008-06-20: TSA says new airport ID rule is not about control
• 2008-06-22: No ID - Reports from the Field
• 2008-06-23: Forget ID after 6/21: expect invasive ?s including political affiliation
• 2008-11-19: Are you kidding me: No ID
• 2009-05-01: What is the ID Policy?
• 2009-05-27: TSA SOP re: airport ID requirements provided to IDP via FOIA request
• 2009-07-20: Flying with expired license
• 2009-07-28: Do kids with seats (age 2-10) need ID?
• 2009-08-04: Expired Drivers licence + Temporary One -Can I fly?
• 2009-08-10: Has anyone had a problem without photo ID at the gate of Jetblue at JFK and MCO?
• 2009-10-30: How many times do I show my BP and ID at the checkpoint?
• 2009-11-09: Can I travel with my expired drivers license as ID?
• 2009-11-16: Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
• 2009-11-21: What happens if an ID is lost?
• 2009-11-22: No longer using passport as ID for TSA - here's why
• 2009-11-28: Expired ID
• 2009-11-30: Damaged NY State License
• 2009-12-08: Flying with expired id or no id
• 2009-12-20: College ID or Expired License for Check-in ID
• 2010-01-29: Great Safety Screening at EWR!!!
• 2010-02-04: Passport card not accepted by TSA yesterday
• 2010-02-06: Getting selected anyway, should I refuse to show ID?
• 2010-02-15: Flying Without ID & TSA @ SFO
• 2010-02-18: TSA requires Passport on Intl Flights?

krimo72

hey there. i am flying back to california tomorrow from colorado. my id has expired 10 months ago. i am flying there in order to renew it since they wouldn't allow me to do it online. will security allow me to get through. i have employee ids and credit card that matches it. i also have a copy of my birth certificate