Go Back   FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel Safety/Security > Practical Travel Safety Issues
Sign in using an external account

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Mar 29, 10, 1:35 pm   #46
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 698
Quote:
Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: IDs can be expired up to 12 months. Since her DL is expired by more than 24, then the answer is no.
And this official TSA policy is specifically documented in writing and available to the public ... where?
Cha-cha-cha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 10, 5:26 pm   #47
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CLT
Posts: 6,338
North Carolina does not take old licenses when a new license is applied for so it is possible for someone to have a fully valid looking license for 2 states...so much for RealID...
__________________
Fly Gracefully
gj83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 10, 6:22 pm   #48
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 4,566
Little old ladies? Is the TSA worried about the Gray Panthers ?
__________________
The answers to all of life's problems are really quite simple.
We just don't like the answers.
SirFlysALot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 10, 7:04 pm   #49
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,439
bring any driver license you like with you on your flight; no problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkenwayx View Post
So here's a ? that we've gotten conflicting answers to.

From tsa.gov it looks like the answer's no...but the airlines said yes.

An older relative has an expired (by 2y) US state driver's license as she hasn't been able to drive recently, and doesn't have a state ID or passport. It's too late to get one for a potential upcoming trip.

What's the verdict??? Can she travel with it or not?
Of course she can travel with it. She can't travel with an 8" screwdriver or 4oz of shampoo (unless it's split into two containers, then placed in a resealable plastic bag), but as far as we can tell, there's no restriction on traveling with an expired driver license.

TSA refuses to publish the rules passengers are required to follow. Best we can tell, no documentation of identity is required, much less a particular type.

Here's what I've been able to find out:

What are the rules concerning airline passenger identification by TSA?

Although TSA refuses to publish all the rules they require passengers to follow at airport checkpoints, from what we can distill from TSA press releases, heavily-redacted information obtained via FOIA requests, TSA blog posts, and other information they publish on the Web, it's relatively clear that your boarding pass is all the documentation that's ever required for domestic flights. It seems that passengers are not required to present documentation of their identities to TSA staff, and that doing so is not a condition of crossing the TSA checkpoint.

TSA won't publish the rules we're supposed to follow. So what do we know about their I.D. policies?

According to a 2008 press release from TSA, TSA's airport passenger identification policy changed on June 21, 2008, but "showing I.D." was seemingly not required before and is seemingly not required now.

Prior to June 21, 2008

Before June 21, 2008, the situation seemed to be: In order to proceed to the "secure area" of an airport after being stopped at a TSA barricade, each passenger must submit to a pat-down and search for metallic objects using a hand-held metal detector, along with a hand-searching of any carry-on baggage, unless he presents documentation of his identity (i.e., unless he "shows I.D."), in which case he must submit only to a search for metallic objects on his person via walk-through metal detector and search of any carry-on baggage using an X-ray machine.

In other words: back then, showing I.D. simply got you a less-thorough search than you'd otherwise receive.

Now

Beginning June 21, 2008, the situation seems to be: Each passenger still has the option of showing I.D. and participating in the less-thorough searches (walk-through metal detector and X-raying of carry-ons), but the alternative now involves not only being thoroughly searched for dangerous items, but also identifying oneself verbally and participating in an interrogation intended to verify one's identity (via phone call from Homeland Security headquarters). Chillingly, it seems from the aforementioned TSA press release that this alternative also requires that someone be "cooperative with officers". What that cooperation entails is not defined.

Initial reports from TSA indicated that while people who claimed that their government-issued I.D. card was misplaced or stolen would be allowed to take the alternate route through the checkpoint (with the questioning), those who willfully refused to show their papers would be barred from proceeding. It's unclear whether or not this is still the case, or if it was ever the case, as TSA's initial press release seems, based on information received from TSA via Freedom of Information Act request, to have been inaccurate.

Summary of present situation and how to exploit it

In short, best we can tell, complying with TSA's "papers, please!" request is not necessary in order to fly domestically, it's simply a way to avoid the hassle of a thorough search for dangerous items, the hassle of providing convincing information in support of your claim to be who you say you are, and having to cooperate with TSA airport staff in any manner they see fit.

This is a great system for people who wish to do harm in airports or on airplanes, since getting a falsified identification document (i.e., a "fake I.D.") is relatively simple, and presentation of one almost guarantees that TSA staff will look at someone with less scrutiny, making it easier for him to take weapons, explosives, or incendiaries past the security checkpoint. Even if TSA could detect such fraud with perfect accuracy, using the Carnival Booth Algorithm, terrorists can probe an identity-based security system like TSA's by sending a number of people on harmless trips through the system, noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. Then they can send those who aren't flagged -- people who almost certainly will get through security with a less-thorough search -- on terrorist missions.

Why does TSA want to identify us? What's wrong with them doing so?

This isn't about your safety. It's about control -- a few people's control over the rest of us.

The primary reason that TSA wants to know who you are is their desire to restrict people's movement based on Homeland Security blacklists. As did every government that has imposed totalitarian rules, TSA repeatedly tells us that their freedom-restricting policies are about safety, security, and rooting out subversives. Of course, this policy is really about extra-judicial punishment, allowing our executive branch of government to sidestep our judicial branch and punish someone for any reason or no reason at all. That's not the way things are supposed to work in the United States. It's ripe for abuse, and it's an infringement on our freedom.

For more on showing I.D. in the general sense, please see the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing I.D.?" page.

Previous discussion on FlyerTalk

For more on TSA airport I.D. policies, see also the following FT threads (the first of which is what brought me to FlyerTalk for the first time):
__________________
Phil
Arrested @ ABQ TSA checkpoint, tried, acquitted | Arrest vid | FAQ | Legal defense fund
pmocek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 10, 5:54 pm   #50
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2
hey there. i am flying back to california tomorrow from colorado. my id has expired 10 months ago. i am flying there in order to renew it since they wouldn't allow me to do it online. will security allow me to get through. i have employee ids and credit card that matches it. i also have a copy of my birth certificate
krimo72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 10, 7:19 pm   #51
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,439
already answered here

Quote:
Originally Posted by krimo72 View Post
i am flying back to california tomorrow from colorado. my id has expired 10 months ago. i am flying there in order to renew it since they wouldn't allow me to do it online. will security allow me to get through[?]
Did you read the very last post before yours? I pay fairly close attention to this issue, and as stated above, best I (and I think most people) can tell, there is no requirement that you present any documentation other than your boarding pass in order to get past a TSA airport barricade. Doing so just allows you through with less scrutiny. As long as you're not carrying any weapons, explosives, or incendiaries, you should be fine. If you want to sneak any of those through, you're going to be way better off if you show some documentation of your identity.
__________________
Phil
Arrested @ ABQ TSA checkpoint, tried, acquitted | Arrest vid | FAQ | Legal defense fund
pmocek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 7, 11, 5:29 pm   #52
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2
Guys, I will be going from NY (not NYC) to DCA (Reagan National Airport) and I happen to find out that my driver ID expired, only 9 months. I spoke with TSA on the phone near my area and I only required to bring my Birth Certificate and SS card. So I should be all set then?

I tried other forums, but they're a bunch of 12 years old mindless, undisciplined kids.

Thanks in advance!
omegaflare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 7, 11, 6:00 pm   #53
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaflare View Post
Guys, I will be going from NY (not NYC) to DCA (Reagan National Airport) and I happen to find out that my driver ID expired, only 9 months. I spoke with TSA on the phone near my area and I only required to bring my Birth Certificate and SS card. So I should be all set then?
Welcome to FlyerTalk.

Here's the summary, as concisely as I can offer it:

1. Plan on getting to the checkpoint earlier than you normally would; it may take you longer than usual to clear the checkpoint.

2. Bring whatever ID you have available with you, including your expired driver's license. Expired licenses are supposed to be good up to a year after their expiration date ... but that largely depends on who you get at the TSA checkpoint examining your ID. Other IDs (especially photo IDs) may bolster your case --- there have been reports of TSA accepting documents as insecure as a Costco membership card. It's always possible that you may have no problem clearing the checkpoint at all.

3. Even if none of your IDs are deemed "acceptable", you may still be able to fly. TSA has procedures for verifying your identity that involve an extensive interview and comparing the information you give against information available in public databases like your credit history. The procedures will take some time, however, so be prepared for a delay.
jkhuggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 7, 11, 6:24 pm   #54
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaflare View Post
Guys, I will be going from NY (not NYC) to DCA (Reagan National Airport) and I happen to find out that my driver ID expired, only 9 months. I spoke with TSA on the phone near my area and I only required to bring my Birth Certificate and SS card. So I should be all set then?

I tried other forums, but they're a bunch of 12 years old mindless, undisciplined kids.

Thanks in advance!
I would not take either of those documents - for multiple reasons - some practical and some that would kick this thread to the policy forums. At a minimum, those documents provide nothing to prove your identity, but provide everything to have your identity stolen.

As the poster above noted, I would recommend just taking your expired driver's license.
Mientree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 7, 11, 8:35 pm   #55
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2
Okay..

I am going to DMV and get a state ID. And they can issue me a temp. state ID while I wait for my state ID for trip purpose only. I will speak with my DMV rep. tmw.

Will temp. state ID will do just fine?
omegaflare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 7, 11, 9:52 pm   #56
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaflare View Post
I am going to DMV and get a state ID. And they can issue me a temp. state ID while I wait for my state ID for trip purpose only. I will speak with my DMV rep. tmw.

Will temp. state ID will do just fine?
It's unclear. The official TSA Guidelines say that "Drivers Licenses or other state photo identity cards issued by Department of Motor Vehicles (or equivalent)" are acceptable. Whether or not the TSA employee will judge that your temporary ID qualifies is hard to predict.

As I said above, bring whatever photo ID you can find --- both your expired driver's license and your temporary state ID, and anything else you happen to have.

(As others have noted, birth certificates and/or Social Security cards are of marginal utility, since no photos are involved, and present serious risks regarding identity theft.)
jkhuggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 8, 11, 6:21 am   #57
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DCA / WAS
Programs: DL 2+ million/PM, YX, Marriott Plt, *wood gold, HHonors, CO Plt, UA, AA EXP, WN, AGR
Posts: 9,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkhuggins View Post
(As others have noted, birth certificates and/or Social Security cards are of marginal utility, since no photos are involved, and present serious risks regarding identity theft.)
This cannot be emphasized enough. Putting aside the concerns about TSA folks seeing them (or even worse, copying them), if you lost the documents or the bag in which you carried them were stolen, it would be all an identity thief needed.
Global_Hi_Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 8, 11, 3:39 pm   #58
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmocek View Post
Of course she can travel with it. She can't travel with an 8" screwdriver or 4oz of shampoo (unless it's split into two containers, then placed in a resealable plastic bag), but as far as we can tell, there's no restriction on traveling with an expired driver license.

TSA refuses to publish the rules passengers are required to follow. Best we can tell, no documentation of identity is required, much less a particular type.

Here's what I've been able to find out:

What are the rules concerning airline passenger identification by TSA?

Although TSA refuses to publish all the rules they require passengers to follow at airport checkpoints, from what we can distill from TSA press releases, heavily-redacted information obtained via FOIA requests, TSA blog posts, and other information they publish on the Web, it's relatively clear that your boarding pass is all the documentation that's ever required for domestic flights. It seems that passengers are not required to present documentation of their identities to TSA staff, and that doing so is not a condition of crossing the TSA checkpoint.

TSA won't publish the rules we're supposed to follow. So what do we know about their I.D. policies?

According to a 2008 press release from TSA, TSA's airport passenger identification policy changed on June 21, 2008, but "showing I.D." was seemingly not required before and is seemingly not required now.

Prior to June 21, 2008

Before June 21, 2008, the situation seemed to be: In order to proceed to the "secure area" of an airport after being stopped at a TSA barricade, each passenger must submit to a pat-down and search for metallic objects using a hand-held metal detector, along with a hand-searching of any carry-on baggage, unless he presents documentation of his identity (i.e., unless he "shows I.D."), in which case he must submit only to a search for metallic objects on his person via walk-through metal detector and search of any carry-on baggage using an X-ray machine.

In other words: back then, showing I.D. simply got you a less-thorough search than you'd otherwise receive.

Now

Beginning June 21, 2008, the situation seems to be: Each passenger still has the option of showing I.D. and participating in the less-thorough searches (walk-through metal detector and X-raying of carry-ons), but the alternative now involves not only being thoroughly searched for dangerous items, but also identifying oneself verbally and participating in an interrogation intended to verify one's identity (via phone call from Homeland Security headquarters). Chillingly, it seems from the aforementioned TSA press release that this alternative also requires that someone be "cooperative with officers". What that cooperation entails is not defined.

Initial reports from TSA indicated that while people who claimed that their government-issued I.D. card was misplaced or stolen would be allowed to take the alternate route through the checkpoint (with the questioning), those who willfully refused to show their papers would be barred from proceeding. It's unclear whether or not this is still the case, or if it was ever the case, as TSA's initial press release seems, based on information received from TSA via Freedom of Information Act request, to have been inaccurate.

Summary of present situation and how to exploit it

In short, best we can tell, complying with TSA's "papers, please!" request is not necessary in order to fly domestically, it's simply a way to avoid the hassle of a thorough search for dangerous items, the hassle of providing convincing information in support of your claim to be who you say you are, and having to cooperate with TSA airport staff in any manner they see fit.

This is a great system for people who wish to do harm in airports or on airplanes, since getting a falsified identification document (i.e., a "fake I.D.") is relatively simple, and presentation of one almost guarantees that TSA staff will look at someone with less scrutiny, making it easier for him to take weapons, explosives, or incendiaries past the security checkpoint. Even if TSA could detect such fraud with perfect accuracy, using the Carnival Booth Algorithm, terrorists can probe an identity-based security system like TSA's by sending a number of people on harmless trips through the system, noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. Then they can send those who aren't flagged -- people who almost certainly will get through security with a less-thorough search -- on terrorist missions.

Why does TSA want to identify us? What's wrong with them doing so?

This isn't about your safety. It's about control -- a few people's control over the rest of us.

The primary reason that TSA wants to know who you are is their desire to restrict people's movement based on Homeland Security blacklists. As did every government that has imposed totalitarian rules, TSA repeatedly tells us that their freedom-restricting policies are about safety, security, and rooting out subversives. Of course, this policy is really about extra-judicial punishment, allowing our executive branch of government to sidestep our judicial branch and punish someone for any reason or no reason at all. That's not the way things are supposed to work in the United States. It's ripe for abuse, and it's an infringement on our freedom.

For more on showing I.D. in the general sense, please see the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing I.D.?" page.

Previous discussion on FlyerTalk

For more on TSA airport I.D. policies, see also the following FT threads (the first of which is what brought me to FlyerTalk for the first time):
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, even if they don't post the law.

I think I read this in the book "catch 22"
DIFIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 16, 11, 6:02 pm   #59
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1
Expired license question

Ok so I currently live in Pittsburgh for school and I got my license renewed less than a year ago and it expired already. My mother contacted the DMV and they said they messed up so when I come home I can get it renewed, no problem. But I am flying home next week and my license is expired (3 months ago apparently) I am renewing it when I get home next week. Will I be able to board the plane I also have my college ID?
cougars14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 16, 11, 7:13 pm   #60
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,224
Welcome to FlyerTalk.

The short answer is: yes, you'll be able to board the plane. But be prepared to be at the airport much earlier than you might otherwise, just in case getting through the security checkpoint takes longer.

The long answer is ... longer.

First, bring every photo ID you have, including your expired driver's license. There are reports here that TSA can accept driver's licenses that expired within the last 12 months as proof of identity --- so your old driver's license might be fine. This may depend, however, on what the particular agent examining your ID card chooses to do.

Having additional photo ID on you can help the process as well. We've heard some pretty bizarre stories here ... some passengers have gotten through a TSA checkpoint using a Costco membership card as their only photo ID. It might be that if you have enough photo ID of various types, the agent examining your ID card(s) might let you through.

In the worst case, you'll be asked to submit to an interview that will compare information you give about yourself against information available in various public databases (e.g. your credit history). If your answers match those in the databases, you'll be allowed to pass the identity check.

But all of those resolutions will likely take additional time, and so you should plan on getting to the airport earlier than you might normally.
jkhuggins is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 5:52 am.




SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.