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Old Aug 7, 07, 3:27 pm   #1
 
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How about the negotiations about an entry into an alliance?

Hello,

some month ago, when old Varig left Star, there was the information, that new Varig and Star started negotiations about the entry of New Varig into Star. Never heard anything more about this topic.
Now, with the possible beginning of codeshare between TAM and LH/TP/UA, the situation of a new membership of Varig in Star seems to be less possible then before.

Are there any new roumors/information about this topic?
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Old Aug 9, 07, 1:44 pm   #2
 
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Yesterday, coming back from São Paulo, I asked this same question to some RG employees. They said they haven´t heard anything about RG being on any alliances anytime soon. And at this point, from Star´s perspective, TAM is miles ahead of RG, I guess.

Varig´s inflight magazine this month states that RG will be flying in September to Paris and Rome, and till the end of the year to Madrid, London and Mexico City. USA flights should come back next year. I guess we´ll just have to be patient.
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Old Aug 10, 07, 8:38 am   #3
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Rumour

There is a rumour in an important Brazilian Aviation site (www.contatoradar.com.br) that VARIG will start to fly to Beijing/China in 2008. Also, there is a rumour that AF/KLM may start distribution VARIG's PAX in Europe.


If true, and adding to the fact of the MOU between TAM and LH/TAP/UA, that might result in the end of the long term agreement between TAM and AF.
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Old Aug 10, 07, 8:47 am   #4
 
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Varig has to close ASAP some agreements for passenger distribution with other airlines, I picked up my mother of law this week at the gate in FRA from RG 8740, and I only counted 60-70 people leaving the plane. It seems, that RG/GOL is getting a big loss out of this flight.
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Old Aug 10, 07, 8:49 am   #5
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingRabbit View Post
And at this point, from Star´s perspective, TAM is miles ahead of RG, I guess.
Also in terms of security?? In my opinion, this could be a point in order to set stars focus to RG again.
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Old Aug 11, 07, 5:24 am   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moranguinho View Post
Also in terms of security?? In my opinion, this could be a point in order to set stars focus to RG again.
Emotions aside, economics are much more important when you talk alliances (I always point to SK and AF as examples of airlines that had serious accidents in the past and are still prominent members of alliances).
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Old Aug 11, 07, 9:51 am   #7
 
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Yes, I think you are right with this. But esp. LH is an airline with very high requirements on the safety of partner airlines.This point brings me to my question. Today, there was an articel in globo, that TAM is not doing aircradt inspections i at the right time, I think that this could at least bring some doubts to LH.
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Old Aug 11, 07, 11:39 am   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Moranguinho View Post
Yes, I think you are right with this. But esp. LH is an airline with very high requirements on the safety of partner airlines.This point brings me to my question. Today, there was an articel in globo, that TAM is not doing aircradt inspections i at the right time, I think that this could at least bring some doubts to LH.
What ANAC just fined TAM for (interesting timing BTW, don't you think? ) is nothing more that happens to other big airlines from time to time. It just doesn't get to the news media. In Brazil currently anything even remotely linked to aviation gets on the front page and on prime time television, whether it's newsworthy or not. WHY? "It makes money, stupid".

I repeat what I have said before: TAM remains a safe airline and in six months time, even emotional Brazilians will be flying all over the place again.

LH knows that and that's why the answer to your question is NO.

Don't forget: Money makes the world go around, whether it's news or avation
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Old Aug 11, 07, 12:39 pm   #9
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
There is a rumour in an important Brazilian Aviation site (www.contatoradar.com.br) that VARIG will start to fly to Beijing/China in 2008. Also, there is a rumour that AF/KLM may start distribution VARIG's PAX in Europe.


If true, and adding to the fact of the MOU between TAM and LH/TAP/UA, that might result in the end of the long term agreement between TAM and AF.
SkyTeam has very little coverage of South America, so that might indeed be the way to go for RG. I´d rather be with Star or OW, but one alliance is better than none.
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Old Aug 12, 07, 11:58 pm   #10
 
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Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
I repeat what I have said before: TAM remains a safe airline
I think a short look into safety records shows, that TAM is no safe airline. If you compare the accidents of the last 30 years of TAM with the accidents of Varig or Vasp, than you can see the difference between international standards and a very bad airline. And for this, you also have to think about, that Vasp and Varig were a lot bigger than TAM most of the time.

Also the continuous incidents of TAM are an indicator about the bad safety performance of the airline. Sure, you can see, that it is bad luck, bad there is no bad luck in aviation.

And I know, that LH wanted some minimum safety requirements from asiean and african airlines before starting a partnership. This was confirmed a few weeks ago by LHs CEO in a german magazine. Surely, it is not possible to compare brazilian airlines with these airlines, because the overall standard is high in brazil (with TAM as exception), but it shows LHs focus.

But yes, I think you are right. Money makes the world go round, and I also think, that an entry of TAM into *A is possibly coming the next years, but now not to soon anymore, because this would result in bad press for LH, esp. in yellow press in germany.

But I still hope that VRN will make it, but I doubt, because the process of restructuring is during too long.

Last edited by Moranguinho; Aug 13, 07 at 1:18 am.
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Old Aug 13, 07, 7:21 am   #11
 
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Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
I don't agree. I think you read safety records like the devil reads the Bible.


In an incident on February 8, 1979, a Bandeirante crashed near the town of Agudos killing all 18 people aboard. This was the first accident with loss of life for TAM.
On July 4, 1984 a second Bandeirante crashed in poor weather on approach near Macaé, killing all 17 people aboard.
On February 12, 1990 a F-27 aborted its landing, striking houses and a car outside the airport of Bauru. The 2 occupants of the car were killed.
On October 31, 1996, TAM Linhas Aéreas Flight 402 crashed shortly after take-off from Congonhas, striking an apartment building and several houses. All 90 passengers and 6 crew members on board died. Three people were killed on ground. The crash was attributed to a faulty thrust-reverser in the right engine deploying after take-off.
On September 18, 2001, the right engine of a Fokker 100 broke up during flight over Belo Horizonte, sending shrapnel into the cabin and depressurizing it. One passenger died.
On August 30, 2002, Flight 3084, a Fokker 100, was forced to land at a farm near Araçatuba after running out of fuel due to a faulty indicator gauge. The gear-up landing's only victim was a cow on the ground. No passengers were injured.
On the same day, another Fokker 100 made an emergency gear-up landing at Viracopos airport. Shortly after the incidents of August 31, TAM announced its intention to immediately reduce its fleet of Fokker 100 and phase out the type completely within three years.
On August 8, 2006, the forward airstair of a Fokker 100 separated from the aircraft just after the plane took off from Congonhas, hitting the roof of a supermarket in São Paulo. No one was injured in the accident, and the aircraft landed shortly after.
On July 17, 2007, Flight 3054, an Airbus A320, registration: PR-MBK, on a flight from Porto Alegre with 186 passengers and crew[3], overran the runway at Congonhas airport, crossed a major thoroughfare and impacted against a TAM Express warehouse.198 bodies have been recovered from the crash site, including passengers and others on the ground.[5] This is considered to be the deadliest airplane accident in Latin America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Lin...ts_for_Success

This is one of the worst safety records in civil aviation of the last 30 years. You can deny these facts, but the facts will remain facts. Nevertheless, I wish you the very best look for your futere flights with TAM. I still will avoid them until a safety culture of international standard will take place in this airline.

BTW: This issue was already discussed in another topic.
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthrea...azilian&page=2


Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
So what are you saying? That the LH (or UA or AP for that sake) people looked at TAM and despite what they saw in terms of flight safety, they decided to go with TAM as a partner
This might be your interpretation. My question was, wether or not this accident may have an impact on the ongoing negotiations. As you surely know, until now, only letters of intention are signed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Who needs yellow press when they have Moranguinho
I would recommend you to check the offical LH releases concerning the beginning of negotiations about the partnership with Ethiopian Airlines regarding bad press and passengers opinion about partner airline´s safety.
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Old Aug 13, 07, 7:44 am   #12
 
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Fine, now give me the same detailed report for the same time for LH just for starters. Thanks.
Are you saying that Brazil's largest airline is not flying according to international safety standards?
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Old Aug 13, 07, 8:35 am   #13
 
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Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Fine, now give me the same detailed report for the same time for LH just for starters. Thanks.
Here you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa#Incidents

20 November 1974 – Lufthansa Flight 540, an Boeing 747-130 crashes shortly after take-off in Nairobi. 59 of 157 on board lost their lives. This was the first crash of a Boeing 747.

14 September 1993 - Lufthansa Flight 2904, in Warsaw an Airbus A320-211 coming from Frankfurt am Main with 70 people crashed into an earth wall at the end of the runway. A fire started in the left wing area and penetrated into the passenger cabin. The copilot and a passenger died.

25 March 2007 - Lufthansa Flight 584, (SK3585/UA8910) enroute Frankfurt - Cairo made an emergency landing in Belgrade, Serbia due to smoke coming from one of the onboard cabin systems. 213 passengers and 11 crew were onboard the Airbus A300-600 aircraft with only one passenger needing to be treated for smoke inhalation and breathing difficulties.

Note: This list is excluding cargo flights and hijackings, as the above shown mentioned list of TAM does not include the explosion of a bomb onboard of a Fokker flight. And both list are not complete, this needs some detailed research, because most databases are incomplete (I remeber at least one LH incident in FRA and some problems of TAM with the infamous Fokker 100).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Are you saying that Brazil's largest airline is not flying according to international safety standards?
For sure they are flying according to international safety standards. But there is something like a safety culture and the capacity of learning from former accidents that makes the difference between Airlines with a bad and a good safety record. Luck does not exist in aviation. As I said above: Compare the safety revords of Varig and Vasp with TAM and you can see the difference.
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Old Aug 13, 07, 9:02 am   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Moranguinho View Post
Here you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa#Incidents

Wikipedia is probably not the best source for this type of info, especially if you want objective info....My point is that if you analyse the safety records of large airlines over time, you will find issues. They are either corrected or the airline will sooner or later go out of business.

For sure they are flying according to international safety standards.

Good, at least we got that established.

But there is something like a safety culture and the capacity of learning from former accidents that makes the difference between Airlines with a bad and a good safety record.

That's a gratuitious remark. Do you have it as a fact that TAM does not have a safety culture or is it just your gut feeling?

Luck does not exist in aviation.
Of couse it does, just like in any other aspect of life. You just don't want to run business operations (like airlines) based solely on that

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Old Aug 14, 07, 3:02 am   #15
 
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Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Wikipedia is probably not the best source for this type of info, especially if you want objective info....
Yes, as I said above, the research work is hard, I tried it at airdisaster.com, but the search function gave 0 (!) accidents for TAM, and I was not willing to click me through the last 30 yoears by hand. But wikipedia gives a short overview, and if I remember right, at least the TAM articel has restricted access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
My point is that if you analyse the safety records of large airlines over time, you will find issues. They are either corrected or the airline will sooner or later go out of business.
Yes, that is what I have written above. But normaly, in these analyses, the accidents are weighted in dependence of time. And, as also already said, the main issue is to learn from former accidents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Do you have it as a fact that TAM does not have a safety culture or is it just your gut feeling?
Yes, I have this as a fact. Further on, if you need a proof based on public accessible sources, you can analyse the technical incidents TAM had with the Fokker 100 over the last years in comparation with other Fokker 100 airlines. And, if you can see, that TAM is using aircrafts with defect reversor on short airports during heavy rain (even if this surely is not the cause for the latest disaster), then you have a further proof for the safety culture in this airline. No problem of using an aircraft with a defect reversor in GRU, GIG under these conditions, but in CGH...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AAEXP View Post
Of couse it does, just like in any other aspect of life. You just don't want to run business operations (like airlines) based solely on that
Thats what is said above.

So, what is in your opinion the reason for TAMs bad safety record? Bad luck?

Here is a link with an actual rating (sorry, german only, you have the airlines, haul-losses, fatalities and ratings over the last 30 years).

http://www.focus.de/reisen/fliegen/a...aid_24118.html

You can see, that Varig is with its rating close to TAP, while TAM is, even before the latest accidents, close to such infamous Airlines like PIA and Iran Air and also some (coming) star alliance members that had to show significant improvements before the access to *A was admited, like also already written above.

But, as this is not the TAM forum, this forum for sure is not the right place for this discussion.
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