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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
Actually, I think we can. These are people who are in the business of dealing with international customers on a daily basis. Even though I can make a good linguistic argument (linguistics is a hobby of mine) that English is a poor choice for international communications, the fact remains that it is almost universally accepted as the most practical medium for international communications. And so, it is quite reasonable that any international traveler would expect airline personnel to be conversant in English, anywhere in the world. Again, I am not referring to a vendor selling meat-on-a-stick in the streets, I am specifically talking about personnel whose primary job is to assist travelers.
I have been a bit surprised in my travels in China to find that Western language skills are quite lacking in many contexts (high-level business executives, for example) where I would normally expect them to be better, even in countries far less developed than China. It seems to me that this issue is something which is going to leave the PRC less competitive than it would otherwise be, if they don't address the problem aggressively.
I have even found concierges at five-star hotels with a dysfunctional command of English. And I am always perfectly willing to switch instead to Spanish, French, etc., if that would be more productive, but the problem isn't that these employees don't happen to have learned English as their international language, it is that they have learned no language other than their mother tongue.
Less competitive in what aspect? Has PRC not competitive in the last 15 years? Judging a country's competiveness solely on the level English skills is ridiculous. If English skill is used to judge a country's competitiveness, then I must have the met the wrong Chairmen and CEOs of certain Japanese and Korean conglomerates who obviously needed English translators in the meetings I participated in. Last I checked, these companies (and countries) are pretty competitive!
"...perfectively willing to switch to Spanish and French while you are in China"....are you serious?
Less competitive in what aspect? Has PRC not competitive in the last 15 years? Judging a country's competiveness solely on the level English skills is ridiculous. If English skill is used to judge a country's competitiveness, then I must have the met the wrong Chairmen and CEOs of certain Japanese and Korean conglomerates who obviously needed English translators in the meetings I participated in. Last I checked, these companies (and countries) are pretty competitive!
"...perfectively willing to switch to Spanish and French while you are in China"....are you serious?
Well, I really don't want to wander too far off-topic here, but to respond briefly:
1) In my industry everyone has been predicting for years that China was poised to take over the position that Japan has enjoyed over the past twenty years. But in my recent experience, the Chinese are still well behind - again in my specific area at least - in large part because they are not yet communicating well with their potential European or American partners. Of course, much of that lack of understanding is cultural rather than purely linguistic, but I do believe that command of the language is part of the issue.
2) As to the use of Spanish or French, my point was not that I really expected those to be more effective options than English in communicating with a concierge in a hotel in Beijing (although there was a time when the French, certainly, would have expected to be able to communicate in their language in an upscale French hotel anywhere in the world). Rather, my point is that the problem is that staff are not prepared to communicate with the world outside China in any way - it is not just a question of them not having English skills per se. There are certainly countries of the world which due to their particular history still may favor French or Spanish over English as their second language for international communications - Laos or Vietnam, say - and I am certainly willing to meet them half-way.
With that said, give me time. I am a firm believer in being pragmatic, and it will probably be more productive for me to work on acquiring skills in Mandarin than to wait for my Chinese counterparts to improve their English.
To bring this back to the topic at hand, aviation, let me mention that as part of my recent travels I had to book a flight on Shanghai Airlines (which is officially a Star Alliance carrier, though it seems a bit hard to believe - it's been a while since I have encountered a carrier that insists on being paid in cash). Not only do they have no sales offices in the West, and won't sell tickets through a Western travel agent, the personnel answering the English-language domestic reservations line have extremely limited English skills - so limited that it was not possible to communicate basic concepts related to the reservation I wanted to make. Do you not agree that that lack of language skills makes that airline less competitive?
Not only do they have no sales offices in the West, and won't sell tickets through a Western travel agent,
I actually bought an FM ticket through Expedia about 10 years ago because, like many China rookies, I wanted to lock my schedule in advance. In any event, I only made that mistake once; buying in China within a day or two of the flight is far cheaper and more convenient.
Quote:
the personnel answering the English-language domestic reservations line have extremely limited English skills - so limited that it was not possible to communicate basic concepts related to the reservation I wanted to make. Do you not agree that that lack of language skills makes that airline less competitive?
TMK most tickets are sold by travel agents, many of whom speak good English and accept credit cards.
Well, I really don't want to wander too far off-topic here, but to respond briefly:
Do you not agree that that lack of language skills makes that airline less competitive?
I don't agree...what airline with "superior" english speaking reservations agents is flying SHA-CAN for example. They are basically a domestic Chinese airline and I would add that their reservations agents are better in English than the UA domestic agents are in Mandarin. Also English in China is generally better than Korea and Japan. Most people I know who come here complement the country on it's English capabilities.
I don't agree...what airline with "superior" english speaking reservations agents is flying SHA-CAN for example. They are basically a domestic Chinese airline and I would add that their reservations agents are better in English than the UA domestic agents are in Mandarin.
FM may have relatively little competition on a SHA-CAN route (though, without looking that one up, I assume that CA and CZ both fly the same route, and I have found both of those carriers easier to communicate with than FM) but they certainly do have competition on the routes I was taking, like PVG-HKG. And yes, those competitors have better infrastructure in every sense, including better-trained reservations staff.
Their mindset may indeed be primarily as a domestic carrier (certainly the bit about accepting only Chinese-issued credit cards would suggest as much) but then why are they expanding around Asia, and applying for service to the US?!
With all of that said, I should mention that - once I finally managed to book on FM - I did find their onboard first class service to be of a surprisingly high standard. Now if only they would actually post the miles earned to my account...
Unfortunately, I don't have much sympathy with the OP. First, self-proclaiming to arrive at the airport past the check-in cut off, and then being upset at not being allowed to check in for their flight. CA wasn't the problem here - the OP arrived after the published deadline to check in. Could CA have been nice and allowed the OP to get on the fight? Sure, they probably could have. Are they required to? Absolutly not.
And to boot, claiming that UA would have acted any better. I have tried to switch destinations (to CVG from DAY) after I arrived at my connection point to find my scheduled flight delayed by two hours. I wasn't expecting they would, so wasn't disappointed then they wouldn't switch me. However, UA also would have cancelled the return portion in the OP's situation.
TMK most tickets are sold by travel agents, many of whom speak good English and accept credit cards.
I imagine that you are referring to travel agents in China, since in my recent experience, the usual U.S. agents were unable to complete the transaction. They could make a booking on FM, but the purchase transaction would ultimately fail, apparently due to the credit card used being non-Chinese.
It may be that Expedia has a way around that problem through their connection with eLong - Expedia is not generally a favorite of mine and I don't recall if I tried booking with them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
Well, I really don't want to wander too far off-topic here, but to respond briefly:
1) In my industry everyone has been predicting for years that China was poised to take over the position that Japan has enjoyed over the past twenty years. But in my recent experience, the Chinese are still well behind - again in my specific area at least - in large part because they are not yet communicating well with their potential European or American partners. Of course, much of that lack of understanding is cultural rather than purely linguistic, but I do believe that command of the language is part of the issue.
Not sure what industry you are in. Last time I checked technical know how, experience, management skills, regulations, quality, etc. play a greater role in competitiveness than language skills. Unless you are talking about teaching English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
2) As to the use of Spanish or French, my point was not that I really expected those to be more effective options than English in communicating with a concierge in a hotel in Beijing (although there was a time when the French, certainly, would have expected to be able to communicate in their language in an upscale French hotel anywhere in the world). Rather, my point is that the problem is that staff are not prepared to communicate with the world outside China in any way - it is not just a question of them not having English skills per se. There are certainly countries of the world which due to their particular history still may favor French or Spanish over English as their second language for international communications - Laos or Vietnam, say - and I am certainly willing to meet them half-way.
Meeting half way means try to understand local business practice, regulation, custom, etc.... and in certain countries it may not be a good idea to reminding the host about their fomer colonial rulers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
With that said, give me time. I am a firm believer in being pragmatic, and it will probably be more productive for me to work on acquiring skills in Mandarin than to wait for my Chinese counterparts to improve their English.
I think you are being serious, correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
To bring this back to the topic at hand, aviation, let me mention that as part of my recent travels I had to book a domestic flight on Shanghai Airlines (which is officially a Star Alliance carrier, though it seems a bit hard to believe - it's been a while since I have encountered a carrier that insists on being paid in cash. Not only do they have no sales offices in the West, and won't sell tickets through a Western travel agent, the personnel answering the English-language domestic reservations line have extremely limited English skills - so limited that it was not possible to communicate basic concepts related to the reservation I wanted to make. Do you not agree that that lack of language skills makes that airline less competitive?
Not trying to defend all aspects of FM. I've had experience with UA issuing FM ticket, and had US based travel agents issued me FM tickets without any problems. As someone had pointed out - do you home work before you travel outside of your comfort zone. Stop thinking what you are used to is the "normal" and don't make premature judgement.
I pay more premium for "communication skills" than "language skills". I often meet people who speak multiple languages but fail to understand culture differences and sensitivities, and the basic common sense of respecting people and treating people.
i think in OP's case, it would have been the same response from any other airline, and the reason why CA check in agents or supervisors couldn't help is because of the usually huge line ups behind you (and ppl will start rumbling if u r holding them up, unfortunately that just happens alot in China). But I got the same treatment from Air Canada because I missed the check-in deadling by 1 minute, not a thing could be done either (shoved aside too because of line ups).
The changing of destination is probably subject to your ticket conditions, no idea.
And the return trip is not acceptable, they should compensate you for it, you should complain.
And just in general, being a Chinese and from my personal experience, I would suggest you arrive a bit earlier next time to avoid the hassle. Ppl are generally inpatient about things (line ups, etc.), and that would be quite a bit offending especially if you don't experience it often in other countries/places.
In terms of English skills, I would agree that Airlines should do a bit better, but reality is, Mandarin is quite different from English, it's not so easy to pickup for everyone there especially if it's not something they need to use everyday. With that said, those who pick up much better English language skills will most likely pursue higher paying careers. I think it is just as hard for anyone who speaks English to pickup Mandarin without the environment. Give it time, it would change significantly as schools are teaching foreign languages at earlier and earlier stages.
For most airline workers at most Chinese airports, they will still see their airline being Domestic. Workers being told their company joined some alliance doesn't really mean anything to them. Wait some time for this to pickup, have you noticed the China Mobile or China Unicon lounges in airports? The same sort of a perception of an airline alliance will take some time to shape.
I have seen changes with Chinese airlines throughout times and I think it will improve in the categories in which you "don't like too much". But I have generally had good experiences and I think it does take sometime for ppl from other countries to adjust too.
Btw, last time I checked, I haven't gotten any meals for Domestic flights within North America, and blankets are starting to get charged on North American airlines too.
I imagine that you are referring to travel agents in China, since in my recent experience, the usual U.S. agents were unable to complete the transaction. They could make a booking on FM, but the purchase transaction would ultimately fail, apparently due to the credit card used being non-Chinese.
My point was that booking intra-China tickets on international sites is not smart; the fact that some can do it and others can't, is meaningless.
Ctrip is just as good as WN in terms of phone service; you call them, press the appropriate option for English, and you have a live person on the other end within seconds.
If that doesn't suit you, all you need to do is go down to your hotel TA and give them a CC and desired flight info. Booking the same on Expedia gains you nothing.
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Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacommuter
I have been a bit surprised in my travels in China to find that Western language skills are quite lacking in many contexts (high-level business executives, for example) where I would normally expect them to be better, even in countries far less developed than China. It seems to me that this issue is something which is going to leave the PRC less competitive than it would otherwise be, if they don't address the problem aggressively.
I have even found concierges at five-star hotels with a dysfunctional command of English. And I am always perfectly willing to switch instead to Spanish, French, etc., if that would be more productive, but the problem isn't that these employees don't happen to have learned English as their international language, it is that they have learned no language other than their mother tongue.
I think Japan and Korea are examples of "more developed" countries where English are generally abysmal, even with their senior executives.
I get all of you guys saying you have no sympathy for me. First off, I didn't ask for your sympathy. I acknowledge that it was my fault for having arrived late. Did everyone miss that part?
I personally think that good customer service really shines in these irregular events and I understand that airlines can, in the name of the rules and regulations, refuse any type of customer request, but some flexibility may be needed for better customer service.
I was not late by 20 minutes, but by 5 minutes of the check-in deadline. The maximum amount of time it took me to get from check-in to the gates at the new PEK T3 (international gates) was around 25 minutes. If the check-in agent was polite and even offered to discuss the situation with the duty manager, then I'd have been satisfied. But without any effort in helping this stranded passenger, while it does not say in the guidelines and rules that one should help these stranded passengers, suggests that there really is no customer service at this airline. As mentioned in my OP, the duty manager was no helpful person and quite rude. All he did was to say he was busy (on the phone) and told me to go somewhere else, which obviously was the ticketing.
Now, many of you blame me for not being able to speak Chinese or expecting too much. I am not expecting much of them but to be able to communicate in English. This was not possible with these agents (three to four I encountered before having buy a new ticket. This is an international carrier at the major international airport. Why am I at fault for expecting these agents to be able to speak and communicate in English?
I get all of you guys saying you have no sympathy for me.
You have plenty of sympathy from me because I've spent tons of time in those same trenches, ....punctuated by the angry boss factor. In fact, I tried to go to Xi'an during an elevated security period last April or so and had been counting on my *G status to get me into the good line. That didn't happen, so I ended up missing my 8a flight and buying F tickets on the next flight for myself + companion.
My boss hated this result, of course. But, since the alternative would have been spending the day at PEK, I felt that 10 hours of my time would surely warrant the $150 fare difference.
In closing, when doing business in China, it's often necessary to take matters into your own hands; if you do your best to make a flight and get shot down, just do the F thing and be done with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brahms77
I get all of you guys saying you have no sympathy for me. First off, I didn't ask for your sympathy. I acknowledge that it was my fault for having arrived late. Did everyone miss that part?
My comment was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UA_Flyer
My suggestion is always trying to understand the local rules and practice than trying to compare rules and practices of one's home country or your favorite airlines. Once you take that into consideration, things will get easier.
It is frustrating perhaps we are used to certain standards from our home country airlines. I, for one, had been 1K since 1995, and god knows how many times I had wonderful UA agents helped me out during irregular operations over the years.
Yes, PRC airlines customer services are not up to certain standards, but once one sets expectation low, it will be easier to swallow.
Try a number of European airlines also the one Asian airlines that is famous for its in-flight services, you will find they are just as infexible and not customer-focused on the ground as your CA experience...but just with an accent or language you can understand better than CA. I have been there before, but it does not bother me as much because I have set a different expectation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graraps
He was being ironic (having said that, I've never had any issues with AF service...)
I wasn't being ironic, young man.
If you have travelled from London to Far East through transit in Paris with a baby, you will understand what my experience was. The AF just wasn't up to the standard in terms of customer care and services.
I don't know how many flights you did with AF, but your good experience doesn't mean everyone else had the same. And we pick and choose which airline/hotel we like. FT is the forum we all share our experience, and we all talking from personal experience.
