Jul 17, 2014, 9:40 am
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
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Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
This thread is about the loss of MH 17. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the MH 777 Crashes In Ukraine - Official In Kiev Claims Airliner Shot Down By Separatists thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 777.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
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Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)
Oct 23, 2014, 3:59 am
#1051
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Oct 23, 2014, 5:56 am
#1052
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For this reason we rely on air traffic control, and for this reason I argue primary responsibility lies with the Ukrainian side for not having been more cautious. We can blame Russia for the geopolitical sentiment if we want, but that's like blaming America for stirring anti-Western sentiment in the Muslim world - the link between that and the specific terrorist acts performed by individuals actors around the world is dubious at best. The link between saying "go ahead fly this corridor at 30,000 feet" and "uh I think we might've screwed up there, I didn't think those rockets reach to 31,000" is pretty direct.
Oct 23, 2014, 3:28 pm
#1053
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For this reason we rely on air traffic control, and for this reason I argue primary responsibility lies with the Ukrainian side for not having been more cautious. We can blame Russia for the geopolitical sentiment if we want, but that's like blaming America for stirring anti-Western sentiment in the Muslim world - the link between that and the specific terrorist acts performed by individuals actors around the world is dubious at best. The link between saying "go ahead fly this corridor at 30,000 feet" and "uh I think we might've screwed up there, I didn't think those rockets reach to 31,000" is pretty direct.
Times have changed. In 2014 we live in a world with almost instant access to news and current events. Perhaps in previous times there was a strict reliance on local air traffic control to give advice, but these days maybe airlines need to sit down and watch CNN as well.
It seems a pretty simple case to me that if you have a civil war underway, you couldn't rely on who ever is in charge of only part of a country making assurance the whole of its airspace is safe. Unless both sides agreed to protect the airspace.
I also don't buy the 'everyone else was flying there'. A couple of carriers weren't. Did the airlines who continued to fly there actually stop and consider why the other airlines had rerouted? Or did they just ignore that? If they chose to ignore that, why?
These are issues I'm sure will come before the courts in determining the level of compensation MH will need to pay out.
Oct 23, 2014, 9:37 pm
#1054
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I think what has failed is a total 'risk management' failure on the part of not just MH but also Singapore Airlines and a host of other airlines who flew that route.
I know it's easy to point the finger now but, let's be honest, MH does not have a risk management and assessment plan in place to deal with areas where their aircraft fly over or they would have realized even via CNN and the BBC in the week before the shoot down of the MH aircraft a Ukrainian transport was shot down at considerable altitude and realized there were risks in that area.
Anyways, don't quite know who is running MH or was in charge of this at MH but it seems like a total and epic failure on the part of the individual or individuals concerned as far as the safety of their crew members and passengers were concerned. Which does not surprise me one bit with the typical Malaysian attitude of taking things seriously.
This coming after the total lackluster attitude by the government and air force in allowing MH370 to fly totally un challenged across peninsular malaysia without scrambling any jets to intercept and find out why the aircraft had changed course and why there were no communications from the crew.
This interview will give you a bit of an idea as to this 'malaysian attitude' I talk about:
Link: https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...39605761&&tt=b
I know it's easy to point the finger now but, let's be honest, MH does not have a risk management and assessment plan in place to deal with areas where their aircraft fly over or they would have realized even via CNN and the BBC in the week before the shoot down of the MH aircraft a Ukrainian transport was shot down at considerable altitude and realized there were risks in that area.
Anyways, don't quite know who is running MH or was in charge of this at MH but it seems like a total and epic failure on the part of the individual or individuals concerned as far as the safety of their crew members and passengers were concerned. Which does not surprise me one bit with the typical Malaysian attitude of taking things seriously.
This coming after the total lackluster attitude by the government and air force in allowing MH370 to fly totally un challenged across peninsular malaysia without scrambling any jets to intercept and find out why the aircraft had changed course and why there were no communications from the crew.
This interview will give you a bit of an idea as to this 'malaysian attitude' I talk about:
Link: https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...39605761&&tt=b
Last edited by wolf72; Oct 23, 2014 at 9:43 pm
Oct 24, 2014, 6:45 am
#1055
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Isn't always clear what should have been done ..... with the benefit of hindsight?
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Oct 24, 2014, 6:56 am
#1056
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Isn't always clear what should have been done ..... with the benefit of hindsight?
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Sure we can equally say LH, KL, SQ and others may not have appreciated the risk. But they weren't the ones shot down, and they aren't the ones going to be in court having to explain themselves.
Plenty of people speed on the roads. Not all get caught. But for the ones that do, they can't argue that others get away with it so therefore it's all ok.
Oct 24, 2014, 12:12 pm
#1057
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Oct 24, 2014, 4:42 pm
#1058
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Isn't always clear what should have been done ..... with the benefit of hindsight?
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Easy to blame Malaysian, using the fact that they continued to fly through the area, but you could equally ask the same questions about the risk management approach of LH, KL, SQ and others.
Sort of like how SQ tried to lie after the tragedy that they never flew the route via their website only to be caught lying after people checked flight radar and could see the routes used?
Risk Management has nothing to do with hindsight. Surely, as a singaporean who served in the armed forces for your national service, you would already know this!
Oct 24, 2014, 9:09 pm
#1059
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Sort of like how SQ tried to lie after the tragedy that they never flew the route via their website only to be caught lying after people checked flight radar and could see the routes used?
Risk Management has nothing to do with hindsight. Surely, as a singaporean who served in the armed forces for your national service, you would already know this!
Risk Management has nothing to do with hindsight. Surely, as a singaporean who served in the armed forces for your national service, you would already know this!
Also what is it with you and Singaporeans? Just because I LIVE in Singapore doesn't mean I am Singaporean (there are many expats here and it is probably more likely that those contributing to FT are probably expats), and even if I was how would you know that I have done national service as ~50pc of Singaporeans are not required to complete national service.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:21 am
#1060
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Risk Management is not an exact science, it relies on prediction, probabilities and often imperfect information. It is easy to say after the event that MH (and others) should have not flown in the area, but the question is what information did MH have at the time. Various questions can be asked - what information was available publicly, did BA and AF get provided extra info from their governments or did they apply more conservative measures based on media reports etc etc? All I am saying it is very easy for us to sit back and criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but I am happy to live to the professional investigators to get to the bottom of it based on the facts they discover.
Do you really need hindsight to work out it might not be the wisest of moves to fly there?
Oct 25, 2014, 2:29 am
#1061
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Risk Management is not an exact science, it relies on prediction, probabilities and often imperfect information. It is easy to say after the event that MH (and others) should have not flown in the area, but the question is what information did MH have at the time. Various questions can be asked - what information was available publicly, did BA and AF get provided extra info from their governments or did they apply more conservative measures based on media reports etc etc? All I am saying it is very easy for us to sit back and criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but I am happy to live to the professional investigators to get to the bottom of it based on the facts they discover.
Also what is it with you and Singaporeans? Just because I LIVE in Singapore doesn't mean I am Singaporean (there are many expats here and it is probably more likely that those contributing to FT are probably expats), and even if I was how would you know that I have done national service as ~50pc of Singaporeans are not required to complete national service.
Also what is it with you and Singaporeans? Just because I LIVE in Singapore doesn't mean I am Singaporean (there are many expats here and it is probably more likely that those contributing to FT are probably expats), and even if I was how would you know that I have done national service as ~50pc of Singaporeans are not required to complete national service.
I assume you do have access to the BBC, Al Jazeera and CNN news channels in your city state? I watch the news once every couple of days and was aware Ukrainian migs and transport aircraft were getting shot down in the area...and I hardly read the papers. And I am not paid to conduct risk assessments for Malaysia Airlines. That's the job of the fleet commander and management of the airline.
Somewhere, somehow, someone failed.
I don't think you needed intensive intelligence and information to know this.
Just a bit of common sense especially when aircraft are getting shot down from the sky in that region!
Last edited by wolf72; Oct 25, 2014 at 3:11 am
Oct 13, 2015, 12:24 pm
#1062
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Buk surface-to-air missile system caused MH17 crash
Press release by the Dutch Safety Board (13.10.2015) states the following:
"The crash of flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 was caused by the detonation of a 9N314M-type warhead launched from the eastern part of Ukraine using a Buk missile system. So says the investigation report published by the Dutch Safety Board today. Moreover, it is clear that Ukraine already had sufficient reason to close the airspace over the eastern part of Ukraine as a precaution before 17 July 2014. None of the parties involved recognised the risk posed to overflying civil aircraft by the armed conflict in the eastern part of Ukraine."
Full report
Youtube video (in English)
"The crash of flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 was caused by the detonation of a 9N314M-type warhead launched from the eastern part of Ukraine using a Buk missile system. So says the investigation report published by the Dutch Safety Board today. Moreover, it is clear that Ukraine already had sufficient reason to close the airspace over the eastern part of Ukraine as a precaution before 17 July 2014. None of the parties involved recognised the risk posed to overflying civil aircraft by the armed conflict in the eastern part of Ukraine."
Full report
Youtube video (in English)
Oct 14, 2015, 3:36 pm
#1063
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The most disappointing part of all of this is that the person who identified the target, the one who pulled the trigger and the one who ordered the shot to be taken will in all likelihood never face any consequences for their crime.
Just like in KE007 and IR655 in the past, the crew responsible for taking out MH17 will likely not only be protected but will probably get commendations as well.
Just like in KE007 and IR655 in the past, the crew responsible for taking out MH17 will likely not only be protected but will probably get commendations as well.
Oct 20, 2015, 6:57 am
#1064
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Houston
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Has anyone seen the Video uploaded in this facebook page, it seems this is the response from the manufacturer of the missile to the Dutch report...
https://www.facebook.com/RussiaforMe?fref=nf
I will like to know if any of our fellow members could comment on it.
https://www.facebook.com/RussiaforMe?fref=nf
I will like to know if any of our fellow members could comment on it.
Sep 28, 2016, 2:19 pm
#1065
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MH17 missile 'came from Russia', Dutch-led investigators say
International prosecutors say Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine in 2014 by a Buk missile that had come from Russia.
They also narrowed down the area it was fired from to a field in territory controlled by Russian-backed rebels.
Russia says it cannot accept the findings as the final truth, saying no Russian weapons were taken to Ukraine.
They also narrowed down the area it was fired from to a field in territory controlled by Russian-backed rebels.
Russia says it cannot accept the findings as the final truth, saying no Russian weapons were taken to Ukraine.