Jul 17, 2014, 9:40 am

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WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES and SUMMARY
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We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.

As with the earlier MH370 thread, please observe the following in this thread:

1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

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3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.

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FT MH 017 / Other Asian, Australian, and South Pacific Forum Moderation Team:
ABroadAbroad
cblaisd
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for the MH 17 Moderation Team

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note.

N. B. PLEASE SEE THE FAQ IN POST NO. 1.

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SOME LINKS TO RELIABLE SOURCES:

Final Report of the Dutch Safety Board published 13 October 2015

BBC News

Aviation Week

Aviation Herald

Malaysia Airlines Media Statement & Information on Flight MH17

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OTHER FORA OF INTEREST:

This thread is about the loss of MH 17. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:

OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)

If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the MH 777 Crashes In Ukraine - Official In Kiev Claims Airliner Shot Down By Separatists thread is the place.

Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).

Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).

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Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)

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Jul 17, 2014, 11:26 am

#286

jbwe350

Join Date: Jan 2014

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[redacted]

MH was not alone in flying over Ukrainian airspace. The following airlines all do:

TG, SQ, MH, KL, VN, TK, QR, AI, DY, BR, EK and LH amongst others - I don't really think MH deserves the blame for this one...

Last edited by aBroadAbroad; Jul 17, 2014 at 2:27 pm Reason: Removed quote from deleted post

Jul 17, 2014, 11:27 am

#287

BearX220

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Quote:

Originally Posted by laldn

Unconfirmed, but from a Ukrainian journalist on twitter:

"Ukrainian police can't come to the side of the tragedy,terrorists are blocking the way.they said will send black boxes to Moscow..."

And of course Moscow can be trusted to report the data faithfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temedar

With due respect to McFaul, there is no source provided

The McFaul tweet contradicts every other narrative about parties denying responsibility. Grain of salt.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:27 am

#288

ex-koelner

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tyberius

That ANA seems to have felt the same way seems to indicate that at least some people with "knowledge of international flight planning and practice" felt the same way.

The only reason why ANA doesn't fly over the Ukraine is that the logical flight path from Japan to central Europe is over Siberia, crossing the Ural mountains and eventually reaching the Baltic Sea. Has nothing to do with foresightfully avoiding conflict zones.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:27 am

#289

Diogenes1789

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: San Francisco

Programs: United, BA, FlyingBLue, AA

Posts: 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by lokijuh

But not the only ones. Look at flight path for KLM for the same route, also over eastern Ukraine.

I guess it behooves one to check out the routes that airlines are flying before one commits to a flight.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:28 am

#290

lazard

Join Date: Jun 2011

Location: EWR

Posts: 680

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes1789

That Malaysian routes their aircraft through active war zones says volumes about the competence and integrity of their managers. I would never fly them.

Then I guess you'll never fly Lufthansa, Air France, and other major airliners as well.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:29 am

#291

Temedar

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SU and UN to avoid ALL of Ukrainian airspace (except for flights to/from Ukraine) until further notice. Reuters said to report that LH is doing the same

Jul 17, 2014, 11:29 am

#292

Andriyko

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes1789

Assuming (until proven otherwise) the perpetrators were Ukranian rebels, it would not be possible to sanction them, since they are not a nation.

They are not Ukrainian rebels, they are Russians. If anyone wants to sanction them they should sanction Russia and its president.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:29 am

#293

kingsroadgal

Join Date: May 2004

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How do you file a flight plan going over a war zone where possibly there was even a travel warning issued by local authorities? Shouldn't a computer somewhere reject that and kick it back to the pilots and say that's a "no-go"?

Jul 17, 2014, 11:30 am

#294

UAL250

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Quote:

Originally Posted by haddon90

Quote:

Originally Posted by djp98374

The comment was a shot at the incompetence of the airline. Fly over a war zone??? A warzone that has antiaircraft missles.

i believe when UA started the KWI route, the flight path was over iraq.

Correct. Right over Baghdad.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:32 am

#295

Sabai

Join Date: Oct 2002

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Posts: 7,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by lokijuh

But not the only ones. Look at flight path for KLM for the same route, also over eastern Ukraine.

To further complicate things, MH/KL codeshare on this route, so a KL flight could be on MH metal.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:33 am

#296

BearX220

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Temedar

Very interesting. Can the timestamp be confirmed by sources outside of Russia?

The text was pasted to Pprune.org a short time ago. ISO second-source validation now. It could possibly have been reverse-engineered to shift blame from the Russian military, but the timing of information release will be quickly cross-checked and the truth would be hard to shake.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:33 am

#297

Pseudo Nim

Join Date: Jan 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ex-koelner

I disagree somewhat. Look at NH203 paths lately:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...555Z/RJTT/EDDF

That seems like an intentional avoidance. Unfortunately, I do not have premium access to FlightAware, so I can't trace this flight back to inception, so I can't verify it it's been altered in the last year or so. Maybe someone could? Not that it would help matters any.

Jul 17, 2014, 11:34 am

#298

johnspenceruk

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Quote:

MH17 departed some hours after this NOTAM took effect. If the MH17 crew either did not know about this new prohibition or disregarded it, it will suggest serious culpability and negligence on the part of Malaysia Airlines.

[redacted] even if HM17 knew about this it in no way justifies shooting a commercial airliner. You don't simply shoot at a big blob on your radar, without asking questions, on a commercial route, even if it was supposedly "closed" unilaterally by Russians "a couple hours earlier".

Last edited by aBroadAbroad; Jul 17, 2014 at 11:36 am Reason: Unnecessarily personal

Jul 17, 2014, 11:35 am

#299

tyberius

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Join Date: Dec 2010

Posts: 1,161

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironmanjt

Could you please cite where "planes are being shot down on a weekly basis?" They are not.

"At least 10 other Ukrainian aircraft — all of them significantly lower-flying than a Boeing 777 — have been shot down since the rebels started using MANPADS according to a count kept by military aviation expert David Cenciotti, including five Mi-24 Hinds, two Mi-8 helicopters, one An-2, one An-30, and the Ukrainian transport plane. "

http://www.businessinsider.com/ukrai...t-month-2014-7

Not counted in this list is an SU-24 fighter jet shot down on July 14th, for a total of 11.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...-militia-8602/

What I am trying to state in that short phrase, but spelled out longhand here and backed up by the reports above is that:

1. the rebels have strong anti-aircraft capabilities capable of shooting down helicopters, transport jets, and fighter jets

2. they are actively using them and reporting this activity

3. the downed aircraft amounts to more than one per week on average since the beginning of June

4. last shot down aircraft was 4 days ago so the activity is current

This apparently started when they gained access to enhanced weapons at the end of May / beginning of June.

So to be pedantic I can rephrase as "on average 1.57 aircraft per week are being successfully destroyed by anti-aircraft activity over south-eastern Ukraine since the beginning of June."

Jul 17, 2014, 11:35 am

#300

BearX220

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kingsroadgal

As several other posters here have noted, commercial air traffic routinely overflies "war zones." I've flown over Afghanistan several times en route DEL. Iraq, Syria, and other hot spots also commonly have civilian airliners overhead. Cruising altitude is typically considered enough protection.