May 24, 2013, 7:54 pm
Last edit by: coolfish1103
Google doc for China Airlines & Starlux Airlines
- 2017 China Airlines Network
- A document for Tigerair Taiwan (LCC) will soon be made.
Things to note:
Information may not be up-to-date and is only served as advice. It's best for one to call the airline or check the official website. This thread will only cover carriers not having their own forums operated from Taiwan (not China). It's recommended to read some recent discussions in this page or this section of the forum as they might not yet be updated.
Please visit EVA FT forum for information regards to EVA Air.
Miles Buzz
China Airlines (CI) - 中華航空
Subsidiary: Mandarin Airlines (AE) - 華信航空
Fare Family
- China Airlines has followed the steps of EVA Air adopting new fare system where you are charged depending on the booking class you purchase. Have a read: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/othe...y-br-v-ci.html and https://www.china-airlines.com/tw/en...ts/fare-family
Future destinations
- CI plans to operate Seattle from 15JUL24.
Mileage Upgrade no longer applicable to cheap tickets
- From July 2, 2020
You may only upgrade via miles with booking codes Y, B, M, K, Q, T, V for Economy and W, U, A for Premium Economy on all sectors.
Far Eastern Air Transport (FE) - 遠東航空
Ceased operation as of December 13, 2019.
STARLUX Airlines (JX) - 星宇航空
Future destinations
- JX plans to operate Seattle from 17AUG24.
New Lounge at Terminal 2
- First Class Lounge available for First Class passengers only (if not opting for HuanYu Terminal).
Fleet:
13x A321neo
11x A330-900neo (4 currently in service)
10x A350-900 (5 currently in service)
International Airport Gateways
TPE Taipei Taoyuan International Airport - 桃園國際機場
- 2017 China Airlines Network
- A document for Tigerair Taiwan (LCC) will soon be made.
Things to note:
Information may not be up-to-date and is only served as advice. It's best for one to call the airline or check the official website. This thread will only cover carriers not having their own forums operated from Taiwan (not China). It's recommended to read some recent discussions in this page or this section of the forum as they might not yet be updated.
Please visit EVA FT forum for information regards to EVA Air.
Miles Buzz
China Airlines (CI) - 中華航空
Subsidiary: Mandarin Airlines (AE) - 華信航空
Fare Family
- China Airlines has followed the steps of EVA Air adopting new fare system where you are charged depending on the booking class you purchase. Have a read: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/othe...y-br-v-ci.html and https://www.china-airlines.com/tw/en...ts/fare-family
Future destinations
- CI plans to operate Seattle from 15JUL24.
Mileage Upgrade no longer applicable to cheap tickets
- From July 2, 2020
You may only upgrade via miles with booking codes Y, B, M, K, Q, T, V for Economy and W, U, A for Premium Economy on all sectors.
Far Eastern Air Transport (FE) - 遠東航空
Ceased operation as of December 13, 2019.
STARLUX Airlines (JX) - 星宇航空
Future destinations
- JX plans to operate Seattle from 17AUG24.
New Lounge at Terminal 2
- First Class Lounge available for First Class passengers only (if not opting for HuanYu Terminal).
Fleet:
13x A321neo
11x A330-900neo (4 currently in service)
10x A350-900 (5 currently in service)
International Airport Gateways
TPE Taipei Taoyuan International Airport - 桃園國際機場
Information for Airlines based in Taiwan
Sep 24, 2017, 9:14 pm
#721
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SFO
Programs: BR Diamond, Dynasty Flyer Paragon, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 1,926
This is a smart move and I think it has CI's fingerprints on this. CI was really wanting to start flights to Paris this year or next but could not because BR had secured all the rights.
But BR does not make good money from this route and maybe even losing money sometimes.
A few years back BR cancelled flights to Paris CDG. And then started flights back up to avoid losing the rights to fly into CDG. CI has had its eyes on these rights for a while. It was even hoping extra flying rights would be allowed to let it compete against BR.
Getting AF back on this route will apply even more pressure considering both CI and AF are in the same alliance. My guess is CI will use the flight for codeshare and will hope in the long term BR will give up the route if losses mount.
But BR does not make good money from this route and maybe even losing money sometimes.
A few years back BR cancelled flights to Paris CDG. And then started flights back up to avoid losing the rights to fly into CDG. CI has had its eyes on these rights for a while. It was even hoping extra flying rights would be allowed to let it compete against BR.
Getting AF back on this route will apply even more pressure considering both CI and AF are in the same alliance. My guess is CI will use the flight for codeshare and will hope in the long term BR will give up the route if losses mount.
EVA also has a planned nonstop TPE-VIE scheduled to start next summer. They probably saw how well CI's was doing and is now jumping in to compete too.
Sep 24, 2017, 10:50 pm
#722
Join Date: Oct 2012
Programs: Dynasty Frequent Flyer (Elite Plus),Accor Platinum
Posts: 1,866
EVA can always just dump the cargo planes onto the route. Perhaps when the 789 come for EVA next year, they can sub it onto CDG and free up the 777 for other flying.
EVA also has a planned nonstop TPE-VIE scheduled to start next summer. They probably saw how well CI's was doing and is now jumping in to compete too.
EVA also has a planned nonstop TPE-VIE scheduled to start next summer. They probably saw how well CI's was doing and is now jumping in to compete too.
Yes they have just made news about eva's Vienna 3 flights per week. But they have no choice on which days to fly. CI already has a 4 day schedule. So Eva will be capped at 3 flights max per week. Surprised if it was so profitable for CI they didn't think that Eva might like to get into the market.
Concerning that route they will need to use a B789 to be competitive against CI's A350. 3 weekly is a bare min to sustain a long term schedule.
I am sometimes confused but I originally thought it was the EU that set out the 7 day weekly max limit per destination direct flight. But then CI wanted to lobby the French government to add frequencies so again didn't realise the state had the power to make an exception.
The only downside is using AF plane instead of CI's own metal is that AF is probably not very competitive price wise against BR on this route apart from the advantage of flying directly over the PRC. Would that really save that much compared to CI or BR having to mostly fly around it?
Sep 24, 2017, 11:29 pm
#723
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SFO
Programs: BR Diamond, Dynasty Flyer Paragon, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 1,926
Yes they have just made news about eva's Vienna 3 flights per week. But they have no choice on which days to fly. CI already has a 4 day schedule. So Eva will be capped at 3 flights max per week. Surprised if it was so profitable for CI they didn't think that Eva might like to get into the market.
Concerning that route they will need to use a B789 to be competitive against CI's A350. 3 weekly is a bare min to sustain a long term schedule.
I am sometimes confused but I originally thought it was the EU that set out the 7 day weekly max limit per destination direct flight. But then CI wanted to lobby the French government to add frequencies so again didn't realise the state had the power to make an exception.
The only downside is using AF plane instead of CI's own metal is that AF is probably not very competitive price wise against BR on this route apart from the advantage of flying directly over the PRC. Would that really save that much compared to CI or BR having to mostly fly around it?
Concerning that route they will need to use a B789 to be competitive against CI's A350. 3 weekly is a bare min to sustain a long term schedule.
I am sometimes confused but I originally thought it was the EU that set out the 7 day weekly max limit per destination direct flight. But then CI wanted to lobby the French government to add frequencies so again didn't realise the state had the power to make an exception.
The only downside is using AF plane instead of CI's own metal is that AF is probably not very competitive price wise against BR on this route apart from the advantage of flying directly over the PRC. Would that really save that much compared to CI or BR having to mostly fly around it?
Sep 25, 2017, 12:43 am
#724
Join Date: Oct 2012
Programs: Dynasty Frequent Flyer (Elite Plus),Accor Platinum
Posts: 1,866
Well even with the B789 they will still be at a disadvantage compared to AF's ability to fly over PRC.
Vienna with the B777 is likely to be too much aircraft for this destination and won't be competitive with an A350. B777 has 50+ more seating and overall it's a heavier frame than an A350. So BR is overly confident here and unless the demand is much larger they will lose out here. Of course it will also hurt CI's financials on the route.
Interesting times indeed. BR is smashing CI in North America though.
Vienna with the B777 is likely to be too much aircraft for this destination and won't be competitive with an A350. B777 has 50+ more seating and overall it's a heavier frame than an A350. So BR is overly confident here and unless the demand is much larger they will lose out here. Of course it will also hurt CI's financials on the route.
Interesting times indeed. BR is smashing CI in North America though.
Sep 25, 2017, 12:59 am
#725
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CAN, LAX, TPE
Programs: AA, AS, CI, DL, UA
Posts: 2,897
BR has too many planes coming in. They just received all their 77Ws and even if they replace most of the old ones there are still excess capacities. Though I am unsure if it's the right destination for them to step in to have TPE-VIE and TPE-BKK-VIE co-existing, not to say 77W is probably too big. They probably think CI is making a profit there and wanted to step in. Let's see if this turns into a Guam or a New York JFK.
I don't think VIE bilateral has frequency restricted.
BR will be at a disadvantage operating the 77W and not able to overfly PRC. AF itself has a higher cost yet it's able to fly through PRC and is operating a much cost efficient 789. BR's own 789 or 78J will come in next year so if they feel they can't compete with AF they will probably substitute that in for CDG.
I don't think VIE bilateral has frequency restricted.
BR will be at a disadvantage operating the 77W and not able to overfly PRC. AF itself has a higher cost yet it's able to fly through PRC and is operating a much cost efficient 789. BR's own 789 or 78J will come in next year so if they feel they can't compete with AF they will probably substitute that in for CDG.
Sep 25, 2017, 2:55 am
#726
Join Date: Oct 2012
Programs: Dynasty Frequent Flyer (Elite Plus),Accor Platinum
Posts: 1,866
BR has too many planes coming in. They just received all their 77Ws and even if they replace most of the old ones there are still excess capacities. Though I am unsure if it's the right destination for them to step in to have TPE-VIE and TPE-BKK-VIE co-existing, not to say 77W is probably too big. They probably think CI is making a profit there and wanted to step in. Let's see if this turns into a Guam or a New York JFK.
I don't think VIE bilateral has frequency restricted.
BR will be at a disadvantage operating the 77W and not able to overfly PRC. AF itself has a higher cost yet it's able to fly through PRC and is operating a much cost efficient 789. BR's own 789 or 78J will come in next year so if they feel they can't compete with AF they will probably substitute that in for CDG.
I don't think VIE bilateral has frequency restricted.
BR will be at a disadvantage operating the 77W and not able to overfly PRC. AF itself has a higher cost yet it's able to fly through PRC and is operating a much cost efficient 789. BR's own 789 or 78J will come in next year so if they feel they can't compete with AF they will probably substitute that in for CDG.
Sep 25, 2017, 3:08 am
#727
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CAN, LAX, TPE
Programs: AA, AS, CI, DL, UA
Posts: 2,897
Well I think they are keen to taking over No 1 spot from CI and hence in expansion mode. Where CI on the other hand is almost too conservative with almost increase in fleet numbers. So 2 very different strategies right now. I think you mentioned that the NA routes may need reducing eventually due to the excess capacity.
Venturing in Europe is not a bad idea, but emphasizing the service to VIE by making it a daily flight to TPE and 3-4 weekly from BKK seems excess. I don't see CI losing this battle as they are the history maker of making it a non-stop flight, plus it's operating a 359 that's much efficient than a 77W. BR should have gone elsewhere.
If they want to overtake CI's #1 spot they need to go more on regional (though 77W is probably the wrong aircraft to do so). CI has poor long haul but the regional/cargo is still making up for it. I guess their best bet is to wait for the 78J to come in next year and start increasing regional routes.
Sep 25, 2017, 6:27 pm
#728
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SFO
Programs: BR Diamond, Dynasty Flyer Paragon, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 1,926
BR is already reducing capacities in certain destinations that they went too egoistic about, namely JFK, SEA, ORD. Even their 3rd LAX flight is not filling up, but I doubt that's going away. The only NA destination has gone well from the launch date is YYZ. IAH suffers from the oil industry and the high/low season as well, but seems like it's staying at the same frequencies. YVR just recently got the increase after CI gave up their 2 weekly slots, so we will see how that goes with AC now in competition.
Venturing in Europe is not a bad idea, but emphasizing the service to VIE by making it a daily flight to TPE and 3-4 weekly from BKK seems excess. I don't see CI losing this battle as they are the history maker of making it a non-stop flight, plus it's operating a 359 that's much efficient than a 77W. BR should have gone elsewhere.
If they want to overtake CI's #1 spot they need to go more on regional (though 77W is probably the wrong aircraft to do so). CI has poor long haul but the regional/cargo is still making up for it. I guess their best bet is to wait for the 78J to come in next year and start increasing regional routes.
Venturing in Europe is not a bad idea, but emphasizing the service to VIE by making it a daily flight to TPE and 3-4 weekly from BKK seems excess. I don't see CI losing this battle as they are the history maker of making it a non-stop flight, plus it's operating a 359 that's much efficient than a 77W. BR should have gone elsewhere.
If they want to overtake CI's #1 spot they need to go more on regional (though 77W is probably the wrong aircraft to do so). CI has poor long haul but the regional/cargo is still making up for it. I guess their best bet is to wait for the 78J to come in next year and start increasing regional routes.
They can't really go anywhere else, the slots they helped the government negotiate for FCO were given to CI. IST was doing ok until the coup, they felt it was extremely unsafe for them and felt there would be a downturn so they slashed the route. They have been rumored to be looking at BCN but is there really that much demand? Also, EVA hosted a travel agent seminar in Stockholm recently, could we see something there?
As for NA, they need to cut down on the routes. They should have started expansion with SFO(high premium traffic and high fares for Elite) instead of waiting till now to start(and stopped gunning for the low yield Vietnam/Filipino pax)
Sep 26, 2017, 9:17 am
#729
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CAN, LAX, TPE
Programs: AA, AS, CI, DL, UA
Posts: 2,897
EVA is using the nonstop as an addition to VIE to make it daily. 4x weekly via BKK and 3x weekly nonstop.
They can't really go anywhere else, the slots they helped the government negotiate for FCO were given to CI. IST was doing ok until the coup, they felt it was extremely unsafe for them and felt there would be a downturn so they slashed the route. They have been rumored to be looking at BCN but is there really that much demand? Also, EVA hosted a travel agent seminar in Stockholm recently, could we see something there?
As for NA, they need to cut down on the routes. They should have started expansion with SFO(high premium traffic and high fares for Elite) instead of waiting till now to start(and stopped gunning for the low yield Vietnam/Filipino pax)
They can't really go anywhere else, the slots they helped the government negotiate for FCO were given to CI. IST was doing ok until the coup, they felt it was extremely unsafe for them and felt there would be a downturn so they slashed the route. They have been rumored to be looking at BCN but is there really that much demand? Also, EVA hosted a travel agent seminar in Stockholm recently, could we see something there?
As for NA, they need to cut down on the routes. They should have started expansion with SFO(high premium traffic and high fares for Elite) instead of waiting till now to start(and stopped gunning for the low yield Vietnam/Filipino pax)
YVR is pretty much in the same situation as IST except that they are in the market first, but I am not sure if AC will give up on this route, or they will continue to hurt each other.
They should have upped SFO but the thing is they also got UA competing against them. They are now upping the flights cause CI is upping the flights, not sure if it's too late to do so to keep the market share.
VIE is a leisure spot. BCN and MAD are also leisure spots. Not sure if they really need to go toe on toe with CI other than trying to get easy market shares. Don't just mention FCO... CDG was in the same situation but the exact opposite. They can also venture in Australia, but doesn't seem like they want to do it.
Sep 26, 2017, 2:02 pm
#731
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Plat, DL, AS, UA, IHG Plat
Posts: 2,406
BR will be at a disadvantage operating the 77W and not able to overfly PRC. AF itself has a higher cost yet it's able to fly through PRC and is operating a much cost efficient 789. BR's own 789 or 78J will come in next year so if they feel they can't compete with AF they will probably substitute that in for CDG.
On east bound leg (Europe-TPE) most airlines overfly Southwest China (including CI and BR) and then to HKG air traffic control sector before entering TPE control. See for example BR88 CDG-TPE: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...920Z/LFPG/RCTP ; or TK24: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/T...245Z/LTBA/RCTP
Last edited by bzcat; Sep 26, 2017 at 5:14 pm
Sep 27, 2017, 12:30 pm
#732
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CAN, LAX, TPE
Programs: AA, AS, CI, DL, UA
Posts: 2,897
The reason some airlines don't usually overfly PRC from Taiwan to Europe is because they have to pass through Hong Kong or Seoul air traffic control sector so they have to detour no matter what. There is no guarantee that AF will overfly China ex-TPE. I think BR takes the northern route (Korea then Russia) to CDG which does add about 1 hour vs. flying through Western China but there is usually no delays going over Korea. edit: looks like KL does overfly Western China on the way to AMS after the initial detour to HKG.
Sep 27, 2017, 6:29 pm
#733
Join Date: Oct 2012
Programs: Dynasty Frequent Flyer (Elite Plus),Accor Platinum
Posts: 1,866
That is correct Coolfish. I have already explained to my wife that tonights flight from TPE-AMS will fly over some parts of South Korea and then over Russia. I am not sure if this flight is being effected by our national holiday in PRC but its completely sold out from HKG of course but surprisingly to AMS as Well.
I may travel this route less often once LGW starts.
I may travel this route less often once LGW starts.
Sep 27, 2017, 7:23 pm
#734
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,965
Can you explain the reason/history of this? Is it because there is just not enough air space capacity (since most of the Chinese airspace is closed to civil aviation), routing (e.g. even TPE-SHA take a strange S shaped path since you can't really cross the middle of the Taiwan Strait due to military concerns), cost for the airline fees or some traffic right/political reasons?
Sep 27, 2017, 7:31 pm
#735
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,965
Some thoughts...
I have long wondered the over-capacity problem for BR. I guess the big problem is that Mainland is not allowing its citizens to transit in TW for other destinations. TW carriers have wanted that for years. Even during the KMT years, Mainland never gave this up. Now, there is no hope with the DPP in power.
I guess maybe CI was burned by the all-747 decision years ago and now they are a lot more careful with capacity?
Years ago, when they divided up the traffic rights to Europe, BR got CDG and CI got FRA. Now, with them in alliances, it seems they should swap. Of course that is not going to happen. Air France Asie actually served TPE for a while but pulled out. I would also think the locals would prefer BR a lot more than AF - language, service, food. On the other hand, maybe they can sell an "all French" experience. Maybe bring Bonjour Kitty back to CDG?
It is also interesting that AF and KL are one company so I wonder how the internal politics/divisions between AF and KL are going to work?
I have long wondered the over-capacity problem for BR. I guess the big problem is that Mainland is not allowing its citizens to transit in TW for other destinations. TW carriers have wanted that for years. Even during the KMT years, Mainland never gave this up. Now, there is no hope with the DPP in power.
I guess maybe CI was burned by the all-747 decision years ago and now they are a lot more careful with capacity?
Years ago, when they divided up the traffic rights to Europe, BR got CDG and CI got FRA. Now, with them in alliances, it seems they should swap. Of course that is not going to happen. Air France Asie actually served TPE for a while but pulled out. I would also think the locals would prefer BR a lot more than AF - language, service, food. On the other hand, maybe they can sell an "all French" experience. Maybe bring Bonjour Kitty back to CDG?
It is also interesting that AF and KL are one company so I wonder how the internal politics/divisions between AF and KL are going to work?