FYI recent experiences booking an ex-CPT DONE5
Mar 19, 2015, 12:09 pm
#46
Moderator, OneWorld
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: SEA
Programs: RAA RIP; AA ExEXP
Posts: 11,794
I don't do rtw's as much as I used to so am a fairly unreliable source, but it does seem to me that a lot of 'fact' has become 'urban legend'. No one admits to doing the comparison but readily agrees that BA is especially guilty of abusing the YQ fee, but I believe you'll find most major OW carriers charge either YQ or YR on long-haul international routes.
JNB-HKG-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-LHR-CPT, with CX as the first/issuing carrier, total "carrier surcharges" (not listed as YQ or YR) = US$334 (Total taxes/fees around $778.)
CPT-LHR-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-HKG-JNB, with BA as the first/issuing carrier, total carrier surcharges = $590 (total $1015)
CPT-LHR-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-SYD-JNB, still BA, surcharges = $858 (total $1361)
JNB-SYD-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-LHR-CPT, Qantas as issuer, surcharges also $858/$1361.
Obviously these are minimalist itineraries and more segments would clearly raise the totals, but I think the result is fairly instructive. The Australia taxes are plainly higher than the Hong Kong ones.
Mar 19, 2015, 1:15 pm
#47
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
QF vs AA surcharges
I priced a two-person DONE5 JNB-SYD-ADL-PER-SYD-HKG-BKI-HKG-DFW-LAX-DFW-MIA-SKB-JFK-LAX-LHR-JNB using the online tool and via the AA RTW.
The online tool gives a nice breakdown of the fees and surcharges, which I've included verbatim below. The online tool uses QF as the issuing carrier, and the total carrier-imposed surcharges are 12,101 ZAR, with the total taxes/fees/surcharges 33,717.44 ZAR and the total all-in cost 169,757.44 ZAR:
AA does not break it down as well, but shows:
So, presumably the taxes/fees are identical, meaning AA charges 5,449 ZAR less in surcharges per person ($442).
Here's the online tool's detailed breakdown:
The online tool gives a nice breakdown of the fees and surcharges, which I've included verbatim below. The online tool uses QF as the issuing carrier, and the total carrier-imposed surcharges are 12,101 ZAR, with the total taxes/fees/surcharges 33,717.44 ZAR and the total all-in cost 169,757.44 ZAR:
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Base fare: 136,040.00 ZAR total 68,020.00 ZAR each Taxes/fees/surcharges: 33,717.44 ZAR total 16,858.72 ZAR each (surcharges only: 24,202.00 ZAR total 12,101.00 ZAR each) All-in: 169,757.44 ZAR total 84,878.72 ZAR each
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Base fare: 136,040.00 ZAR total 68,020.00 ZAR each Taxes/fees/surcharges: 22,819.44 ZAR total 11,409.72 ZAR each All-in: 158,858.00 ZAR total 79,429.72 ZAR each
Here's the online tool's detailed breakdown:
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Taxes and Carrier Surcharges/Fees Breakdown Adult Australia Passenger Movement Charge September 11th Security Fee South Africa Passenger Safety Charge Hong Kong Air Passenger Departure Tax LECO Passenger Service Charge - Malaysia Domestic Head Tax - Australia Domestic Head Tax - Australia UK Passenger Service Charge UMSE U.S. International Transportation Tax - Departure International Arrival Transportation Tax (USA) Air Passenger Tax for South Africa Australia Baggage Screening Tax - Departure Australian Passenger Service Charge U.S. Animal and Plant Inspection Service Users Fee Passenger Facility Charges Immigration and Naturalization Service Fee U.S. Customs Fee Carrier Surcharge/Fee Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees Passenger Service Charge for South Africa Total Taxes and Carrier Surcharges/Fees: 528.00 ZAR 138.00 ZAR 18.72 ZAR 196.00 ZAR 124.00 ZAR 214.00 ZAR 184.00 ZAR 184.00 ZAR 593.00 ZAR 24.00 ZAR 438.00 ZAR 438.00 ZAR 190.00 ZAR 106.00 ZAR 546.00 ZAR 124.00 ZAR 56.00 ZAR 174.00 ZAR 136.00 ZAR 5,482.00 ZAR 431.00 ZAR 6,188.00 ZAR 346.00 ZAR 16,858.72 x 2 = 33,717.44 ZAR 33,717.44 ZAR
Mar 19, 2015, 3:10 pm
#48
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cayman, San Diego, London
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold, AA 4MM Lifetime Platinum, Hilton Diamond, IHG Diamond Amb, Bonvoy Lifetime Gold
Posts: 1,054
If it helps, I purchased two AONE4s via BA, each one costing ZAR 115,853 (ZAR 96,700, plus ZAR 19,153 in taxes/fees/charges), at the time a total equivalent of US$9,847 each.
Itinerary :-
BA: CPT-JNB-LHR-LAX
AA: LAX-TPA-MIA-GCM-MIA-SAN
AA booked as BA code share: SAN-ORD
CX booked as AA code share: ORD-HKG
CX: HKG-KIX-HKG-HND-HKG
CX booked as JL code share: HKG-JNB
BA: JNB-CPT
Code shares were used to maximize BA tier pts and AA mileage, as CX is somewhat disadvantageous.
Itinerary :-
BA: CPT-JNB-LHR-LAX
AA: LAX-TPA-MIA-GCM-MIA-SAN
AA booked as BA code share: SAN-ORD
CX booked as AA code share: ORD-HKG
CX: HKG-KIX-HKG-HND-HKG
CX booked as JL code share: HKG-JNB
BA: JNB-CPT
Code shares were used to maximize BA tier pts and AA mileage, as CX is somewhat disadvantageous.
Last edited by Full Score; Mar 19, 2015 at 3:16 pm
Mar 19, 2015, 7:37 pm
#49
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
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Using the tool I did some basic comparisons.
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1. [$970] JNB-(BA)-LHR-(AA)-LAX-(CX)-HKG-(CX)-JNB: ZAR 59,010+11,912=70,922 (us$5,775+970= 6,745) 2. [$747] LAX-(CX)-HKG-(CX)-JNB-(BA)-LHR-(AA)-LAX: USD 10,775+747 =11,552 3. [$784] LHR-(AA)-LAX-(CX)-HKG-(CX)-JNB-(BA)-LHR: GPB 6,204+531 = 6,735 (us$9,158+784= 9,942) 4. [$880] LHR-(ba)-LAX-(CX)-HKG-(CX)-JNB-(BA)-LHR: GPB 6,204+596 = 6,800 (us$9,158+880=10,038)
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1. BA Ex JNB: Adult: September 11th Security Fee:71.00 ZAR South Africa Passenger Safety Charge:18.72 ZAR UK Air Passenger Duty:2,662.00 ZAR Hong Kong Air Passenger Departure Tax:199.00 ZAR UK Passenger Service Charge:788.00 ZAR UMSE:24.00 ZAR U.S. International Transportation Tax - Departure:223.00 ZAR International Arrival Transportation Tax (USA):223.00 ZAR Air Passenger Tax for South Africa:190.00 ZAR U.S. Animal and Plant Inspection Service Users Fee:63.00 ZAR Passenger Facility Charges:57.00 ZAR Immigration and Naturalization Service Fee:88.00 ZAR U.S. Customs Fee:69.00 ZAR Carrier Surcharge/Fee:3,508.00 ZAR Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:606.00 ZAR Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:2,776.00 ZAR Passenger Service Charge for South Africa:346.00 ZAR Total Taxes and Carrier Surcharge/Fees: 11,911.72 ZAR
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2. CX ex LAX September 11th Security Fee: South Africa Passenger Safety Charge:1.51 USD UK Air Passenger Duty:210.59 USD Hong Kong Air Passenger Departure Tax:15.45 USD UK Passenger Service Charge:62.38 USD UMSE:1.94 USD U.S. International Transportation Tax - Departure:17.70 USD International Arrival Transportation Tax (USA):17.70 USD Air Passenger Tax for South Africa:15.33 USD U.S. Animal and Plant Inspection Service Users Fee:5.00 USD Passenger Facility Charges:4.50 USD Immigration and Naturalization Service Fee:7.00 USD U.S. Customs Fee:5.50 USD Carrier Surcharge/Fee:301.00 USD Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:48.00 USD Passenger Service Charge for South Africa:27.91 USD Total Taxes and Carrier Surcharge/Fees:747.11 USD
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3. AA ex LHR September 11th Security Fee: South Africa Passenger Safety Charge:1.00 GBP UK Air Passenger Duty:142.00 GBP UK Passenger Service Charge:42.06 GBP UMSE:1.30 GBP Air Passenger Tax for South Africa:10.30 GBP U.S. Animal and Plant Inspection Service Users Fee:3.40 GBP Passenger Facility Charges:3.10 GBP Immigration and Naturalization Service Fee:4.70 GBP U.S. Customs Fee:3.70 GBP Carrier Surcharge/Fee:329.00 GBP Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:32.60 GBP Passenger Service Charge for South Africa:18.80 GBP Total Taxes and Carrier Surcharge/Fees:595.76 x 1 = 595.76 GBP
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4. BA ex LHR September 11th Security Fee: 3.80 GBP South Africa Passenger Safety Charge:1.00 GBP UK Air Passenger Duty:142.00 GBP UK Passenger Service Charge:42.06 GBP UMSE:1.30 GBP Air Passenger Tax for South Africa:10.30 GBP U.S. Animal and Plant Inspection Service Users Fee:3.40 GBP Passenger Facility Charges:3.10 GBP Immigration and Naturalization Service Fee:4.70 GBP U.S. Customs Fee:3.70 GBP Carrier Surcharge/Fee:164.50 GBP Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:32.60 GBP Multiple Carrier Surcharges/Fees:99.70 GBP Passenger Service Charge for South Africa:18.80 GBP Total Taxes and Carrier Surcharge/Fees:530.96 x 1 = 530.96 GBP
Last edited by serfty; Mar 19, 2015 at 8:05 pm
Mar 19, 2015, 9:05 pm
#50
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Programs: AS MVP Gold, BA Silver, AA Gold, Marriott Titanium, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,619
A $442 YQ difference could be the due to a single flight, i.e. the LAX - LHR segment being on BA metal --- or the AA codeshare of a BA flight --- vs. flying this one segment on AA metal.
If the itineraries were truly identical, what exactly does this illustrate ---- that using the tool costs $442 more than buying the ticket through AA over the phone?
Mar 22, 2015, 2:34 pm
#51
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what your posts are showing. They seem to be pricing different itineraries that have different carriers, although the ex-LHR itin might be the same? If so, I'm surprised to see BA's surcharges being less than AA's.
Mar 22, 2015, 2:39 pm
#52
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
I'm confused at trying to do a comparison without keeping the itineraries identical, because otherwise what is being compared? In my case, I was simply trying to see if it was cheaper to have AA be the issuing carrier versus QF. The online tool normally prices with the carrier of the first flight being the issuing carrier. (If I'd done the itinerary in the opposite direction, the comparison would have been BA vs AA.)
Mar 23, 2015, 4:27 am
#53
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London (~75% of the year).
Programs: AA PPro
Posts: 472
FWIW, I looked up LAX-xLHR-JNB on ITA for taxes (in Biz). They were identical:
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) $47.00
AA YR surcharge (YR) // BA YQ surcharge (YQ) $753.00
US International Departure Tax (US) $17.70
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $4.50
Mar 23, 2015, 5:16 am
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
Does that mean you were only transiting in LHR or were you able to get LHR-JNB on an AA code with a stopover in London (which I didn't think was possible)?
FWIW, I looked up LAX-xLHR-JNB on ITA for taxes (in Biz). They were identical:
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) $47.00
AA YR surcharge (YR) // BA YQ surcharge (YQ) $753.00
US International Departure Tax (US) $17.70
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $4.50
FWIW, I looked up LAX-xLHR-JNB on ITA for taxes (in Biz). They were identical:
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) $47.00
AA YR surcharge (YR) // BA YQ surcharge (YQ) $753.00
US International Departure Tax (US) $17.70
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $4.50
Mar 23, 2015, 9:13 am
#55
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
FWIW, I looked up LAX-xLHR-JNB on ITA for taxes (in Biz). They were identical:
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) $47.00
AA YR surcharge (YR) // BA YQ surcharge (YQ) $753.00
US International Departure Tax (US) $17.70
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $4.50
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) $47.00
AA YR surcharge (YR) // BA YQ surcharge (YQ) $753.00
US International Departure Tax (US) $17.70
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $4.50
when booking you can request OneWorld codeshares for all your legs. Some countries have legal policies preventing this unless connecting to or from an international flight but to be honest if the agent is ticketing it by hand she/he may not be familiar with the codeshare policies in every jurisdiction.
Mar 23, 2015, 9:15 am
#56
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Location: London
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The logic describing exactly how codeshares are allowed and when not is not a quality in the public domain, unfortunately.
However it seems when doing RTW trips a lot of it happens by hand, perhaps bypassing the usual restrictions. So if you do request the codeshares they can appear on the ticket even if they would not normally be allowed.
Mar 24, 2015, 10:47 am
#57
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: LAX
Posts: 3,639
I've had the same suspicion, so I took a few minutes to play with the OW online booking tool (buggy as always, half the time pricing a DONE4 ex-South Africa as if it was a DONE5) but here are comparative results for some DONE4s. Note AA is consistently the TATL carrier throughout.
JNB-HKG-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-LHR-CPT, with CX as the first/issuing carrier, total "carrier surcharges" (not listed as YQ or YR) = US$334 (Total taxes/fees around $778.)
...
JNB-HKG-JFK-MIA-DFW-LAX-LHR-CPT, with CX as the first/issuing carrier, total "carrier surcharges" (not listed as YQ or YR) = US$334 (Total taxes/fees around $778.)
...
At first I specified CX for the first two legs, AA from there to LHR, BA to JNB.
That yielded total taxes and fees of $706.90, of which $292 were YQ/YR. Both these are consistent with but about 10% less than the amounts you list above.
(Initially I scheduled the trip with transits everywhere; turns out you save $35.40 because you don't owe the U.S. government International Arrival and Departure taxes. Yippee!)
Next I tried to use BA for LAX-LHR, but ITA wouldn't allow it, not even specifying a BA flight number. Their bug, or some rule agreed by the TATL cartel? Anyway, specifying ~AA,US got me IB on that segment and added $200.80 to the YQ bill.
I reversed the six segments between JNB and LHR to begin from London, on BA to LAX. ITA had no issue with that, and showed $244 in YQ (while IB had charged $200.80 in the opposite direction). BA did not mess with legs other than its own - CX's $48 was there and nothing else. The premium departure from London added another APD charge, of course.
Finally, using the original east-bound route I assigned HKG-JFK to AA (code-share). That cut CX's YR bill in half ($24) and as expected AA didn't jump in to add a charge of its own.
From previous experience I think I could have saved a bit by using AA for LAX-LHR-JNB (it's not offered on just LHR-JNB) but didn't try it.
So it looks like the Big Bad Wolf doesn't add YQ to other airlines' segments (but takes very good care of its own).
And it may be that CX is treating YR like a real fuel tax, and has reduced it as oil prices fell - a year ago their YR on long intra-Asia segments was around $300. But I've run out of 'play' time to check.
Happy trails to all...
John
Mar 24, 2015, 10:52 am
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
However it does not support RTW journeys. It cannot see the DONEx fares so you will end up with something priced as a circle trip probably with YY (IATA general purpose) fares. I don't believe RTWs can be fully autopriced by any commercial software at present, although the rtw.oneworld.com tool does a good job.
If you are having trouble with finding a specific flight, you should begin by turning off "Only show flights with available seats".
Last edited by Calchas; Mar 24, 2015 at 10:58 am
Mar 24, 2015, 11:10 am
#59
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: LAX
Posts: 3,639
ITA allows 16 segments [I believe? but certainly more than 6!]. It only allows 6 multicity stops in the multicity interface, but you can specify more stops by using the advanced routing specification and creative use of the /minconnect flag.
However it does not support RTW journeys. It cannot see the DONEx fares so you will end up with something priced as a circle trip probably with YY (IATA general purpose) fares. I don't believe RTWs can be fully autopriced by any commercial software at present, although the rtw.oneworld.com tool does a good job.
If you are having trouble with finding a specific flight, you should begin by turning off "Only show flights with available seats".
However it does not support RTW journeys. It cannot see the DONEx fares so you will end up with something priced as a circle trip probably with YY (IATA general purpose) fares. I don't believe RTWs can be fully autopriced by any commercial software at present, although the rtw.oneworld.com tool does a good job.
If you are having trouble with finding a specific flight, you should begin by turning off "Only show flights with available seats".
My intent was to investigate taxes and fees, not price an RTW. In the past adding segment-by-segment taxes and fees (taking care with stop-overs etc) to the base xONEx fare gave a satisfactory total, but that wasn't my interest here.
I did try 'available seats' even though from EF it seemed the flights were wide open.
I'll pass on any more jousting with 'advanced routings' than I have to do. I'd be an old man before I got the syntax right. Wait - I am an old man...
Mar 24, 2015, 11:15 am
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
But also, speaking with ITA Hacker about other bugs in the Matrix, it seems that turning off "only show available seats" reduces the complexity of the problem that the Matrix is trying to solve and enables it to find more options than it will do otherwise, given a complex route.
My other thought is, forcing a BA flight number over the Atlantic will mean that sector must be covered using a BA fare component (regardless of metal). That may cause a compatibility problem with other fare components covering your itinerary.