Good point greentips. All of those aircraft have mach limits probably in the vicinity of mach 0.48. The only way the mach speed can be displayed is with a working outside air temperature probe.
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't these pilots be trained to react to a OAT probe failure? Is this not something covered in the manufacturers operators manual?
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't these pilots be trained to react to a OAT probe failure? Is this not something covered in the manufacturers operators manual?
They probably do if it is a total failure. How do you know if the OAT is reading significantly off though? Wait until the wings either fall off or you stall out?
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't these pilots be trained to react to a OAT probe failure? Is this not something covered in the manufacturers operators manual?
Good morning tsadude1. If the electrical resistance is completely broken, that would show up on the ground as a fault. If 200 lbs of TSA aviation security inspector weight merely got it out of alignment with the airflow and decreased the k-factor, that would give false information.
Oh since I'm sure you remember this quite well also, the outside air temperature is used to set torque limits/percent NG on the engines as well. Not a good thing to have false outside air temperature limits when trying to make sure you don't over torque the Pratt&Whitney's.
__________________
paul k. sanchez
boca raton, florida 33428
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't these pilots be trained to react to a OAT probe failure? Is this not something covered in the manufacturers operators manual?
Just out of curiosity, shouldn't TSA inspectors be trained not to stand on the OAT probe and when told do not stand on them by airplane mechanics to stop standing on them? Thereby preventing the grounding of nine aircraft, delaying the flights of hundreds of passengers at risk, or trying to blame the airline for the TSA's mistake. To say nothing of endangering passengers lives if this had not been caught by alert flight mechanics.
Good morning tsadude1. If the electrical resistance is completely broken, that would show up on the ground as a fault. If 200 lbs of TSA aviation security inspector weight merely got it out of alignment with the airflow and decreased the k-factor, that would give false information.
Oh since I'm sure you remember this quite well also, the outside air temperature is used to set torque limits/percent NG on the engines as well. Not a good thing to have false outside air temperature limits when trying to make sure you don't over torque the Pratt&Whitney's.
I wasnt sure. I was thinking that there would be a engine air inlet temp guage(s)
Just out of curiosity, shouldn't TSA inspectors be trained not to stand on the OAT probe and when told do not stand on them by airplane mechanics to stop standing on them? Thereby preventing the grounding of nine aircraft, delaying the flights of hundreds of passengers at risk, or trying to blame the airline for the TSA's mistake. To say nothing of endangering passengers lives if this had not been caught by alert flight mechanics.
I was a aircraft mechanic for many years and truly understand the ignorant actions of this individual. I just dont think that the TSA does.
I was a aircraft mechanic for many years and truly understand the ignorant actions of this individual. I just dont think that the TSA does.
The TSA does not. The threats of fines after the airline made this public makes that clear. And wasn't that the same airport that they tried to fine because their security treated a red team like terrorists?
__________________ Department of Homeland Security sounds better in the original German: Heimatsicherheitsministerium
That going to depend on just how far you are willing to stretch the meaning of the terms you are using.
Asking a question is not harassment, period. Asking a question "may" be considered to be interrogation, but only if one chooses to think of it as such. Answering a question with a question is evasion, and can be considered to be refusal to answer, if one chooses to think of it that way.
Pardon me, sir, but what kind of a simpleminded maroon are you!??
Answering a question with a question= evasion?
What about if the receiver of the question doesn't understand the question and wants clarification? Is that evasive?
And is the TSO then supposed to just jump to high alert rather than listening and considering that perhaps he or she might be able to communicate more effectively?
You're not doing well showing the flag for your side, you're just coming off like some narrowminded goon on a power trip.
I wasnt sure. I was thinking that there would be a engine air inlet temp guage(s)
It has to do with the physics of flight as well as the engine limits. Most turbine powered aircraft are designed with adequate power to climb to altitude where they are most efficient and require less thrust to maintain airspeed. There is a limit to subsonic aircraft design called the Mmo. Aircraft depend on a relatively uniform airflow over the wing to create a pressure differential that causes lift. Wings are designed to cause airflow over the top to have to travel further than airflow under the wing. This faster airflow causes the pressure differential which we call lift.
Once certain components of the wing reach a critical airspeed, called the Mmo, a shock wave can form over the wing creating a loss of control and a subsequent stall. This shockwave causes a separation of air flow over the wing and results in an inability to control the aircraft. Once this stall fully develops, it can take thousands of feet to recover, if it can be recovered at all. Several test pilots are not with us any longer who helped discover this phenomenon.
The Mmo and the stall speed approach each other as a non-transsonic/supersonic aircraft approaches the critical mach number. Where these intersect is a function of wing design (wing thickness), aircraft loading and air density (which is in turn a function of temperature).
If the Mach speed is miscalculated, and the aircraft is operated close to the Mmo /stall speed intersection it doesn't take much temperature change to alter the mach number. It's been decades since I've done those calcs, but I could probably go out to the barn and dig up the old textbooks, and give you the equations, but then I'd probably bore everyone here much more than I already have, which is why I didn't discuss it originally, but knotyeagle moved this part of the problem front and center.
Here's where it becomes a very serious problem: When an airplane is operated close to its Mmo, stress forces on each wing become highly critical. Any turn, bump in the air, can cause a wing to stall or exceed its design, which can break an airplane up. Remember, in this region of the flight envelope, the airplane is operated at close to its airframe design speed, and close to its stall speed. You stall, your airplane will lose altitude and the recovery may overstress the airplane and when that happens things break. When they break, they fall off. If you're a test pilot, you get out before the thing hits the ground. If you're not, well, I'd rather not think about it.
Pardon me, sir, but what kind of a simpleminded maroon are you!??
Answering a question with a question= evasion?
What about if the receiver of the question doesn't understand the question and wants clarification? Is that evasive?
And is the TSO then supposed to just jump to high alert rather than listening and considering that perhaps he or she might be able to communicate more effectively?
You're not doing well showing the flag for your side, you're just coming off like some narrowminded goon on a power trip.
Sheesh.
Uh Oh, your in trouble now... TSORon is a self proclaimed Security Expert.
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA (Recently of San Francisco)
Programs: UA-1P,SPG-Gold,Marriott-Silver
Posts: 10,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by fendertweed
Pardon me, sir, but what kind of a simpleminded maroon are you!??
Answering a question with a question= evasion?
What about if the receiver of the question doesn't understand the question and wants clarification? Is that evasive?
And is the TSO then supposed to just jump to high alert rather than listening and considering that perhaps he or she might be able to communicate more effectively?
You're not doing well showing the flag for your side, you're just coming off like some narrowminded goon on a power trip.
Sheesh.
I must have missed the original post to which you're responding. I'll address it now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSORon
Asking a question "may" be considered to be interrogation, but only if one chooses to think of it as such.
Incorrect. The Constitution considers it to be "interrogation." This is important, so I will put it in big, bold letters:
NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS PUT TO THEM BY A TSO.
Refusing to answer a question by a TSO carries NO legal presumption.
It has to do with the physics of flight as well as the engine limits. Most turbine powered aircraft are designed with adequate power to climb to altitude where they are most efficient and require less thrust to maintain airspeed. There is a limit to subsonic aircraft design called the Mmo. Aircraft depend on a relatively uniform airflow over the wing to create a pressure differential that causes lift. Wings are designed to cause airflow over the top to have to travel further than airflow under the wing. This faster airflow causes the pressure differential which we call lift.
Once certain components of the wing reach a critical airspeed, called the Mmo, a shock wave can form over the wing creating a loss of control and a subsequent stall. This shockwave causes a separation of air flow over the wing and results in an inability to control the aircraft. Once this stall fully develops, it can take thousands of feet to recover, if it can be recovered at all. Several test pilots are not with us any longer who helped discover this phenomenon.
The Mmo and the stall speed approach each other as a non-transsonic/supersonic aircraft approaches the critical mach number. Where these intersect is a function of wing design (wing thickness), aircraft loading and air density (which is in turn a function of temperature).
If the Mach speed is miscalculated, and the aircraft is operated close to the Mmo /stall speed intersection it doesn't take much temperature change to alter the mach number. It's been decades since I've done those calcs, but I could probably go out to the barn and dig up the old textbooks, and give you the equations, but then I'd probably bore everyone here much more than I already have, which is why I didn't discuss it originally, but knotyeagle moved this part of the problem front and center.
Here's where it becomes a very serious problem: When an airplane is operated close to its Mmo, stress forces on each wing become highly critical. Any turn, bump in the air, can cause a wing to stall or exceed its design, which can break an airplane up. Remember, in this region of the flight envelope, the airplane is operated at close to its airframe design speed, and close to its stall speed. You stall, your airplane will lose altitude and the recovery may overstress the airplane and when that happens things break. When they break, they fall off. If you're a test pilot, you get out before the thing hits the ground. If you're not, well, I'd rather not think about it.
Being that I was a helicopter guy, your explanation seems to clear the air Believe me though, the idiot who climbed up the aircraft using the pitot probe should be FIRED.
Originally Posted by TSORon
Asking a question "may" be considered to be interrogation, but only if one chooses to think of it as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTravel
Incorrect. The Constitution considers it to be "interrogation." This is important, so I will put it in big, bold letters:
NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS PUT TO THEM BY A TSO.
Refusing to answer a question by a TSO carries NO legal presumption.
ROTFL, I’d like to see someone make a case of that in court.
Where, and please be specific, very specific, in the constitution is asking a question considered interrogation? Please post the link to the relevant code/statute/ruling/amendment/whatever, so that we can all read it. Get on Westlaw and make it happen PT, we can wait.
ROTFL, I’d like to see someone make a case of that in court.
Where, and please be specific, very specific, in the constitution is asking a question considered interrogation? Please post the link to the relevant code/statute/ruling/amendment/whatever, so that we can all read it. Get on Westlaw and make it happen PT, we can wait.
Actually Ron someone is making a case of it, if your reread the original post you'll see that. Perhaps you can answer the question that was asked by the passenger;What law requires me to answer the questions from a TSO and what law says its illegal to carry large amounts of cash when traveling inside the United States? In this country its innocent until proven guilty, so its up to you to show us if we are wrong.
I'm sure there is case law about how being questioned by anyone working for a government security or law enforcement agency can be considered an interrogation. I don't have access to Westlaw.
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA (Recently of San Francisco)
Programs: UA-1P,SPG-Gold,Marriott-Silver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSORon
ROTFL, I’d like to see someone make a case of that in court.
Keep applying your own personal standards to the screening process and you will, no doubt.
Quote:
Where, and please be specific, very specific, in the constitution is asking a question considered interrogation? Please post the link to the relevant code/statute/ruling/amendment/whatever, so that we can all read it. Get on Westlaw and make it happen PT, we can wait.
Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitutiion
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
Believe me though, the idiot who climbed up the aircraft using the pitot probe should be FIRED.
