Programs: UA Premier Executive - yay!, HH Silver, TSA Disparager Gold, KHIAI Club
Posts: 8,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSORon
The courts have also upheld that if a TSO/LEO finds an illegal item or substance incidental to the search for a specific item then it is allowed as evidence in any criminal court proceedings.
IOW, if I am searching for your tiny little Swiss Army knife in your bag and I find your stash of weed, it is a legal search in every possible way. Off to jail you go (depending on the laws of the state of course).
For those of you who have not checked out TK’s screeners forum, this is an area that might make you want to do so. Its an ongoing topic there with some very interesting views and opinions. I highly recommend that you take the time to look over his efforts.
If it's in plain sight or in an area where it would likely be, then yes.
However, you can't look in flat envelopes that couldn't contain them and find passports because you a knife wouldn't reasonably in a flat envelope.
Searching for a swiss army knife does NOT give you the authority to rifle thru and read papers. That exceeds the scope of the search.
In the Fofana case, the screener had no reason to open the envelopes because it did not contain what she was looking for. If it felt like a passport, too bad. If the passports were in plain view or he handed a fake passport, that's another story, but not with how this case went down.
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Kip Hawley is an Idiot - a truth that even a 4 year old understands.
Fair Warning: Im not in a good mood and TSA is at the root cause.
Yeah you are Ron a suspicious character that i wouldnt trust with a potato gun based off your posts here, let alone aviation security. Interesting consequences, don't you mean retaliation which is not allowed by your SOP? Interesting observation, your actions are just like the other TSholes i have encountered in the last 30 days. Its people like you and the actions of your compatriots are the reason i treat every smurf with contempt and suspicion.
Then just like those monotone BS announcements (especially the ones about expert x-ray screening LOL) about suspicious activity at the airport were supposed to report because I see it all the time. I see this all of the time, and i report it to real LE cause you know those people in blue shirts that think they know what they are doing. When in reality i don't trust any LEO wanna be in a blue shirt with a fake tin badge as far as i can throw a hand grenade and shoot with accuracy (pick a format, distance and caliber and i will tell you the 10 shot groupings)
This is especially after your compatriots a other airports ruined my last vacation when you decided to hold my bag at MIA (after it had been checked and cleared at JFK) coming off my connecting flight going on to a international flight and not telling the airline why until i called the airline and asked ... my bag was (isnt bags not traveling internationally without there owner a massive No No?) and stole items out of my bag that you would only know where they were if you had a xray machine.
Then lets not mention the $15K worth of life support gear TSA damaged on my last trip because of the way you tossed the back and improperly repacked it by just throwing everything back in with no regards for my property. TSA will be paying to have repaired or replaced. If TSA refuses i will have multiple people in court explaining themselves. Dont give me the line about not being able to sue the gov't without its permission because that doesn't mean i cant sue you personally since you were acting as a agent for the government as I have done it before and will do it again and win!
Ron I dare you and any of your compatriots to detain or restrain me when im traveling because the person doing so will be lucky if they can ever walk and/or feed themselves ever again and spend time in jail contemplating how back they messed up.
As for this case im really looking forward to how this and similar cases pan out, cause they way its looking TSA is about to get what its had coming for years of violating the rights of travelers.
If it's in plain sight or in an area where it would likely be, then yes.
However, you can't look in flat envelopes that couldn't contain them and find passports because you a knife wouldn't reasonably in a flat envelope.
Searching for a swiss army knife does NOT give you the authority to rifle thru and read papers. That exceeds the scope of the search.
In the Fofana case, the screener had no reason to open the envelopes because it did not contain what she was looking for. If it felt like a passport, too bad. If the passports were in plain view or he handed a fake passport, that's another story, but not with how this case went down.
In the Fofana case the TSO had NO reason to be in the suitcase anyhow. By her admission the x-ray would have caught any weapon.
Quote:
THE COURT: Did you think that the envelope contained
a weapon?
THE WITNESS: No. It is very unlikely that it would
have contained a weapon because it already went
through the x-ray machine and that's what they
were checking for in the x-ray machine.
There was no alarm on his person or bag so it takes out the "I was looking for a Swiss army knife" defense.
Nor should it. However, the SOP isn't just a collection of WAI (Wild-Assed Ideas). The procedures have been staffed and reviewed from every angle. The Office of Civil Rights, including the department that addresses persons with disabilities, as well as the attorneys. And it's always subject to legal challenges, as it should be. I don't expect you to blindly accept the TSA SOP. However, you would be disingenuous if you were summarily dismiss the SOP as invalid. It's a matter of reviewing the procedures whenever these legal challenges arise.
They have not been reviewed from the angle of right or wrong, they have been reviewed from the angle of what can we (TSA) defend and what is the damage if we lose.
Take the illegal search, what is the downside to the TSA preforming an illegal search? The only downsides I can see is the evidence found is not admissible and the cost of attempting to defend the policy in court. Nobody that wrote the policy will go to jail, get fined or otherwise be damaged if the policy is found illegal.
What is the upside? Hundreds if not thousands of convictions for illegal items with a just select few being taken through the higher courts for review. PR cases on how well the TSA is protecting the people. (of course none of these have to do with airline/airport safety)
And the kicker on the upside is if a policy is found illegal all they have to do is change it slightly and the clock starts again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Sorry, but I have to giggle at that remark. I've seen the SOP evolve over the past 9 years or so. At first, it was too general. Then it got into the weeds. Now, TSA is trying to find a middle ground that gives specific guidance when it's needed yet allows a degree of flexibility when warranted. It's a tough job. I admit that I don't spend a lot of time during the basic course talking about cash or drugs. That's because it amounts to a parenthetical mention while the main topic are things like IEDs, IED components, guns, knives, and other prohibited items.
Bottom line (and there are knuckleheads in TSA who fail to understand this), it is impossible to write an SOP that addresses every situation encountered by a TSO.
I am truly surprised that you would expect that.
I disagree, you can write and SOP to cover EVERY situation. In fact I will bet you that you can not come up with a checkpoint scenario that the SOP does not cover.
Seriously when it comes to searching for WEI writing the SOP can not be that difficult unless it is intentional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
The challenge is in making it stick. From the trainee's perspective, it is like drinking from a firehose. Extending the course simply isn't practical. It takes approximately 60 to 75 days from the moment the employee is sworn in to the day that individual is certified as a TSO. And that's just to give them the basic foundation. From that point, we build upon it with more and more advanced training. It takes about a year before the TSO is what I truly consider fully certified to perform all functions. (That's just my opinion. If others in TSA ever heard that from me, I'd be hung, drawn & quartered, and hung again for heresy.)
The things the TSA is worried about sticking is not the same things I am worried about sticking. Your TSOs should be worried about three things, finding WEI, following the law and defending the Constitution.
All the rest is just crap made up by people that get paid by the word.
The procedures have been staffed and reviewed from every angle. The Office of Civil Rights, including the department that addresses persons with disabilities, as well as the attorneys.
You really trust Francine and her attorneys? Talk about blind faith.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
It takes approximately 60 to 75 days from the moment the employee is sworn in to the day that individual is certified as a TSO. And that's just to give them the basic foundation. From that point, we build upon it with more and more advanced training. It takes about a year before the TSO is what I truly consider fully certified to perform all functions. (That's just my opinion. If others in TSA ever heard that from me, I'd be hung, drawn & quartered, and hung again for heresy.)
this is really sad - that the need for properly trained personnel apparently isn't viewed as a priority by TSA management.
The screwy part comes from items, such as cash in excess of $10 k or drugs. As I've posted before, this appears to be confusing for some supervisors and officers. Personally, I don't understand why it should be confusing.
I agree - it shouldn't be all that hard for TSA to tell its personnel that since cash isn't a danger to airport or aviation security, that they should not detain a passenger found to be carrying it.
