Location: Somewhere near DCA. NW Platinum. AA Platinum.
Posts: 11,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTravel
What swei0009 posted was a quote from an ultra-orthodox Jewish organization called Chabad -- it's the organization that sponsored the Jewish center in Mumbai at which the rabbi, his wife and three other people were killed. These are not her words, but Chabad's. Chabad, in its statement, is speaking to Jews and non-Jews do not need to concern themselves with mitzvahs (blessings) or lighting Shabbos candles (the traditional way Jews welcome the sabbath). That you remember them, along with the other victims, is enough. Perhaps considering the first sentence, "we must do what Gabi and Rivka would want us to do, redouble our efforts of bringing light and goodness to a world filled with evil and negativity," is worthwhile as well as it is something that all people should strive for.
I can't speak for swei0009 or her motivation for posting, but two things that struck me in this thread was (1) the attempt to distinguish the Mumbai massacres from Muslim extremist terrorism (which, from what I've been hearing on the BBC was a misplaced effort), and (2) one poster who, in his effort to explain these despicable acts as something other than religiously-motivated said, "it's not always about the Jews," when it was pointed out that a Jewish center was specifically targeted (along with hospitals, the two hotels, a restaurant and the train station).
As I've said since the beginning of this thread, Muslim extremism isn't Islam anymore than Jewish extremism is Judaism or Christian extremism is Christianity. With respect to Mumbai, everything I'm hearing on the BBC (CNN's world service is worthless) is that the murderers were trained by at least one Muslim extremist group. That they may have come from Pakistan is meaningless -- nothing points to Pakistan's involvement in this disaster.
There is, however, one glimmer of hope that I see in all this. India has made a point of making it clear that it does not hold Pakistan responsible, and the Pakistani president has unambiguously condemned the attacks and promised cooperation. At least to me, this is a major step forward to world peace -- a dozen years ago, I would have expected a shooting war between the two countries. It seems that, finally, world leaders all over (including Barack Obama) are agreeing that extremist terrorism is a global problem and we must all work together to end it. Though I'm just one person, I embrace both Pakistan's and India's willingness to work together, and their mutual recognition that this isn't a geopolitical battle, an ethnic battle or a religious battle. It's a battle against some very well organized criminals who, like some of virtually every faith, have perverted their religious beliefs into something sick, virulent and destructive and represent a threat to civilized human beings, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christian and everyone else.
You have got a few things mixed up. I remembered saying something like what I have boldened and what you have attributed to "one poster". When so many are dead and some of the dead are Jews, In my opinion, it's pointless to argue about who was or was not targeted. It is not appropriate to segregate victims into their religious affiliations. When more than a hundred are dead, of which some number is Jews, and a Jewish establishment is among the sites of the horror, it's parochial and maybe even insensitive to give the tragedy exclusively jewish dimensions. It makes one think no one else matters.
If a poster wants to pay respects to Jewish victims in a Jewish manner using terms that some of us, who are not Jews, do not understand, it seems to exclude other victims who are not Jewish. I think a Jewish forum forum is more appropriate for that. I alos wonder how come a person would remember the Jewish victims but not the policeman who died in fighting the terrorists, regardless of whether the policemen were competent or not. I find that puzzling.
As far as Pakistani involvement is concerned, I can not say, without a shadow of doubt that Pakistan is involved, but it would be foolish to rule that out just because President Zardari, Mr 10 percent has condemned it. Gen. Musharraf condemned terrorism in words too, But he and some of his top Generals had their finger prints on some incidents. His former ISI chief is believed to have been involved in some aspects of 9/11 too. Mrs. Bhutto too, used cross border terrorism to strengthen herself politically during her tenure. It is naive to think that even if the current Civillian Govt of Pakistani is desirous of resisting the temptation of using terrorisn against India as a matter of foreign policy, it's too early to tell if certain elements of the Army and ISI would go along with that.
Even the U.S. counter terrorism officials are saying the incodent does appear to have finger prints of Pakistani outfits named Lashkar-e-Toiba or Jaish-e Mohammed. There could be other outfits too such as that of Dawood Ibrahim. Some Indians could be among the foots soldiers.
__________________
Those who sacrifice liberty of some to purchase a little temporary safety, will have neither liberty nor safety.
Location: Somewhere near DCA. NW Platinum. AA Platinum.
Posts: 11,263
Great questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodo
Exactly, since no one can ascertain for sure who is responsible and each and every one is pointing the finger at a particular group/country/govt.
Some people who know the region well are asking the following questions:
1. why were hostages taken by the attackers?
2. where was a decision made to make sure that the situation would not settle to a point where demands from hostage takers and negotiations may have entered into the picture?
3. why were the attackers interested in passports and the hotel guest registries.
4. Who usually go to or use Bombay as a Thanksgiving holiday extended-weekend getaway.
5. and subsequently how such information was known to the planners & attackers.
5. And the connection between Nariman/Chabad House and the border control efforts?
Hopefully the Indian authority (ies) will be more forthcoming in their investigation(s) as compared to what we experienced for Benazir Bhutto's murder.
Very good questions dodo. I would like to see these self proclaimed security, intelligence, and counter-terrorism experts think along these lines. Do you think their heads would start hurting?
I can see you have given a great deal of thought to this. Although FT has a larger percentage of enlightened population than the population at large, many posters are limited by their parochial upbringing.
__________________
Those who sacrifice liberty of some to purchase a little temporary safety, will have neither liberty nor safety.
Myles Curtis, A Briton who is now living in Australia and was visiting Bombay on business, unwittingly took refuge with two of the gunmen in a room at the Taj Mahal hotel. When the group finally made a dash for the exit Indian troops shot the two men. "We did not know they were in the room with us until they tried to escape with us," he said. "But the security services knew who they were and shot them."
followed by: Businessman Hugh Brown hid in a library area of the Taj Mahal Hotel with a large group of people. "There was a gunman who had been in among us in the room for the best part of the evening. When he got out with us, he started shooting some of the people as they were leaving the room and was then dealt with by the security forces," he said.
Why didn't the gun men killed the people with whom they have taken refuge?
Was there a mix of commandos ( according to some authorities some were very experienced in combat training and must have seen battles) who were killers and some newbies?
Here is what I have to say to those 'experts' who belive that there is no Pakistani involvement in these attacks.
1, The entire Bush administration and most of Tony Blair's Cabinet assured us and the world that they had irrefutable evidence that Iraq possessed WMD's and that it presented imminent danger to us.
2, Bush administration has repeatedly asserted that we have not employed torture.
Am I to conclude that President Zardari is more honourable than General Musharraf or President Bush or Tony Blair?
__________________
Those who sacrifice liberty of some to purchase a little temporary safety, will have neither liberty nor safety.
It seems likely now that the terrorists were members of Lashkar-e-Taiba who are principally involved with gaining "freedom" for Kashmir - this would account for the attacks on the train station & hospital where the majoroty of deaths occurred
This leaves the question of why they also went after certain nationalities.
My theory - it was a "side order" from the people who trained them who asked for the attack to include foreigners as payment
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Starwood (Plat) and every other US program
Posts: 2,035
Isn't it somewhat unusual not to have a credible claim of responsibility? Or is it just because I don't understand India?
That is, someone (or some group) undertook a terrorist attack this week. To me, at least, the point was not obvious. So wouldn't someone who was responsible want to make it known why they did this?
In my case they would be hurting their cause, because it would engender hostility from me, and not compassion for their cause. But they must have thought that there was a "positive" purpose for which they would want credit.
Programs: Chairman MC, HH Gold, AA GOLD, PC RA, TAJ Innercircle Silver
Posts: 2,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaatri
Age creep!. Soon you will have moved to the U.S. as an infant. You have no recollection yet you now, instinctively, that Muslims committed atrocities against Hindus. I suppose it was instilled in you. You have no idea who Godse was because you left India when you were 9 9didn't you say before that you were 10?), but youy know all about how much Gandhi gave away to Muslims. Do you really want us to believe your thoughts are rational? DO you expect us to suspend our rationality?
First, I arrived in JFK on Dec 23, 1986. Born july 1976 so that makes me 10.5yrs. Sorry for the miscalsulation. If you want, I can even send you a scan of my entry stamp into the USA on my Indian passport.
I also did not attend school the last year of my time in India due to going back and forth from grandparents and splitting time between Nagpur and Kolkatta. My dad was the FIRST exporter of leather goods from India and had run into massive union problems and had to leave. I do not pressure this issue with my dad as it is a sensitive issue to him.
So, I have NO IDEA who Godse is. Now the earlier comment was me listening to my wife. THAT IS NOT MY OPINION. I need to research some more before I make a decision. That is the first and last time I listen to my wife in these issues.
Oh and I was hungover yesterday so therefore no replies in case you want to question that also.
__________________ STRANGE is a necessary evil required to refresh and renew the NORMAL.
Here is what I have to say to those 'experts' who belive that there is no Pakistani involvement in these attacks.
1, The entire Bush administration and most of Tony Blair's Cabinet assured us and the world that they had irrefutable evidence that Iraq possessed WMD's and that it presented imminent danger to us.
2, Bush administration has repeatedly asserted that we have not employed torture.
Am I to conclude that President Zardari is more honourable than General Musharraf or President Bush or Tony Blair?
Let me ask you...I assume you to be a Hindu but why the "meek" attitude towards Pakistan?
At least UA FAN wants India to kick their ARSE !!
I have noticed that you seem to stop short of suggesting that India finish waht we should have finished years ago.
__________________ STRANGE is a necessary evil required to refresh and renew the NORMAL.
Isn't it somewhat unusual not to have a credible claim of responsibility? Or is it just because I don't understand India?
That is, someone (or some group) undertook a terrorist attack this week. To me, at least, the point was not obvious. So wouldn't someone who was responsible want to make it known why they did this?
In my case they would be hurting their cause, because it would engender hostility from me, and not compassion for their cause. But they must have thought that there was a "positive" purpose for which they would want credit.
In my non-expert opinion, these groups just want to destabilize the status quo and foment Hindu-Muslim tensions. They know that this will result in militant Hindu mobs attacking Muslims in the poor, undereducated areas of India, and retaliation by the Muslims, creating a more favorable environment for their aims such as "Kashmiri independence." They don't really care about "compassion for their cause."
Programs: Chairman MC, HH Gold, AA GOLD, PC RA, TAJ Innercircle Silver
Posts: 2,625
I have a small suggestion to the leaders of the world:
If terrorism is not condoned by any country, then that country should let the affected countrys' commandos/seals come in and take out the terrorist group without any involvement or help for the harboring country and no repurcussions against that country. Of course, all civilian casualities must be avoided but if the civilians are helping then, then go in, finish it up and let GOD sort them out.
For example:
India shold now have permission from Pakistan to enter their borders and head to the terrorist camp/headquarter and act with extreme prejudice.
Now the issue that comes into play is that terrorists will change their headquarters to major city centers. At that point, the citizens will fight back against it if THEY ARE REALLY AGAINST TERRORISM.
Most normal/good citizens people are not willing to put up with this Sh** in their backyard.
__________________ STRANGE is a necessary evil required to refresh and renew the NORMAL.
Programs: Chairman MC, HH Gold, AA GOLD, PC RA, TAJ Innercircle Silver
Posts: 2,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandhi90s
I love all the fighting words from the armchair warriors. Y'all need to grow up. You break it, you own it.
Do you want India be stuck in Pakistan and inherit all its social and economic problems, just as the US is now stuck in Iraq?
We have already have their social and economic problems. The poor muslims who migrate en masse to India to MAKE MONEY and live a somewhat better life. but us Hindus have no issues with this. Try a Hindu going to Pakistan and doing the same thing.
What would happen to that Hindu? MY dad was in Lahore for 3 days for work and he could feel the hard looks at him. He has travelled all over the world but he has never felt so out of place than in Lahore than anywhere else in the world.
__________________ STRANGE is a necessary evil required to refresh and renew the NORMAL.
I have a small suggestion to the leaders of the world:
If terrorism is not condoned by any country, then that country should let the affected countrys' commandos/seals come in and take out the terrorist group without any involvement or help for the harboring country and no repurcussions against that country. Of course, all civilian casualities must be avoided but if the civilians are helping then, then go in, finish it up and let GOD sort them out.
For example:
India shold now have permission from Pakistan to enter their borders and head to the terrorist camp/headquarter and act with extreme prejudice.
Now the issue that comes into play is that terrorists will change their headquarters to major city centers. At that point, the citizens will fight back against it if THEY ARE REALLY AGAINST TERRORISM.
Most normal/good citizens people are not willing to put up with this Sh** in their backyard.
You have a totally unrealistic view of countries and national pride. No country would willingly allow that. This applies also to your belief that invading Pakistan will do anything but harm. Unrestrained anger is not a good basis for foreign policy.
Oh, and Yaatri is sane, and not a bigot. That's why he doesn't foam at the mouth like you'd prefer.
I would like to see these self proclaimed security, intelligence, and counter-terrorism experts think along these lines. Do you think their heads would start hurting? 
