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Originally Posted by SRQ Guy
That's a good one!
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Originally Posted by Jenbel
Well it's what we manage to do in the UK. Or are you saying the work ethic of Americans is worse than the work ethic of the British?
Exactly. We had an employee who abused sick pay and was fired. It's perfectly possible to have a decent sick pay regime without getting screwed over.
That said, we're not unionised.
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Originally Posted by SRQ Guy
Our productivity is higher.
You work more hours and take less vacation. Well done.
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Originally Posted by 601
This is what I find so horrifying about many attitudes expressed around here, by whatever means most of us have arrived at a relatively comfortable station in life and from that station many seem to delight in throwing rocks at those who are less fortunate for whatever reason as though it is exclusively their personal failings that put them there.
Quite.
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I'm gonna make him an offer he don't refuse.
You really think no one abuses the "free benefits" the government forces on businesses?
No.
But from what has been said in this thread it seems that abuse of sick days is much less endemic in the UK than in the US. We don't routinely see sick days as a right that we have to take. You (generally) go sick when you are too sick to work. Whereas I'm being told by the Americans on this thread that sick days are perceived as a form of leave, or that the right to such has already been lost, because of that attitude and widespread abuse of them.
So it seems like there is a cultural difference in this between the UK and the US. Now part of that could be because of our much more generous holiday entitlement, which means we are not under such pressure to scrounge holidays from anywhere we can get them.
And the end result is that when I'm sick, I get to stay in bed. I might have to justify my lack of attendance, particularly if I have a large number of sick days in a year, but the bottom line of it all is better for me.
But from what has been said in this thread it seems that abuse of sick days is much less endemic in the UK than in the US. We don't routinely see sick days as a right that we have to take. You (generally) go sick when you are too sick to work. Whereas I'm being told by the Americans on this thread that sick days are perceived as a form of leave, or that the right to such has already been lost, because of that attitude and widespread abuse of them.
So it seems like there is a cultural difference in this between the UK and the US. Now part of that could be because of our much more generous holiday entitlement, which means we are not under such pressure to scrounge holidays from anywhere we can get them.
This is a faulty conclusion based on a biased sample set.
There's fairly well documented evidence of the abuse of sick leave in countries where, by law, there's unlimited sick days. The Belgian government has a program where they're trying to root out fakers and "encourage" them to get back to work.
Well it's what we manage to do in the UK. Or are you saying the work ethic of Americans is worse than the work ethic of the British?
Remarkable, I think, that it's the plantation red-staters who distrust 'little people'. So guess what they get? Employees who don't trust their employers. And potential employees with self-respect and integrity go to work elsewhere.
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The views expressed herein are mine, entirely mine, and only mine. Go get your own.
You really think no one abuses the "free benefits" the government forces on businesses?
Do you think that "potential for abuse" is a valid reason for not doing something at all or not doing something well? Or is just a way to assuage one's conscience?
65% of small business people in the US cheat on their income taxes. Is that a reason to prohibit small businesses?
Every country has instances where trust is abused.
However, there is not necessarily more abuse where there is more trust.
In fact, often the more trust there is the less abuse.
If you know that you are trusted to take whatever sick time you need then that can lead to less of a need to play games than someone who has to "earn" his sick days and is not treated with respect.
Key elements of all the European "sick leave is just that, 100% paid leave for when you are sick" programs that I know of are:
1. Workers are generally not working two jobs, or typically lots of unpaid overtime but instead work much, much fewer hours than Americans while achieving a similar productivity. Part of this comes from the insight of diminishing returns and that just being at the workplace lots of hours per week does not always translate into results. This results in fewer stressed, overworked, sickly workers who don't have time to take care of their personal life.
2. Workers often receive 10, 15 or 20 paid holidays per year, plus at least five weeks of paid vacation per year if not ten as a senior employee, have access to days of business days, receive a number of days or weeks free for funerals, marriages, mommy and daddy leave for childbirth, etc. Why cheat on sick leave when you don't even use all your vacation days in a year?
3. Workers often have a more cooperative working relationship rather than an adversarial relationship. Boss and employee see themselves as on the same team versus adversaries. Getting agreement on taking vacations, even for a month at a time, and taking time off when you need it is not such a big deal.
4. "Trust is great, control is better" Almost all countries, either send doctors to the homes of those who are sick for a long time and/or have other ways to limit individual cases of abuse. Since you know that if you call in for paid sick leave that you can be visited at home by a doctor at any time unannounced and that your employer can take action against you if you are not in fact sick not only helps keep people honest but makes sure that serious problems, such as psychological problems, are caught early.
This is a faulty conclusion based on a biased sample set.
There's fairly well documented evidence of the abuse of sick leave in countries where, by law, there's unlimited sick days. The Belgian government has a program where they're trying to root out fakers and "encourage" them to get back to work.
If you'll re-read what I wrote, I never said that it wasn't abused. But unlike in the US, the levels of abuse have not meant that the right has been withdrawn yet. That to me indicates that the abuse levels became intolerable in the US, but are not in the UK.
(btw, Belgium is not in the UK, so I really cannot speak for what is happening in a country I know very little about. However, your choice of words seems to suggest that it's about long term sick/disabled, which is a problem in many countries I believe - the US also has similar problems I believe?)
If you'll re-read what I wrote, I never said that it wasn't abused. But unlike in the US, the levels of abuse have not meant that the right has been withdrawn yet. That to me indicates that the abuse levels became intolerable in the US, but are not in the UK.
(btw, Belgium is not in the UK, so I really cannot speak for what is happening in a country I know very little about. However, your choice of words seems to suggest that it's about long term sick/disabled, which is a problem in many countries I believe - the US also has similar problems I believe?)
No it doesn't, it could just as easily mean that the business culture is different in the feeling of entitlement to certain benefits - like sick leave. You make the assumption that the level of abuse is the only factor when that's not the case.
My choice of words with regards to Belgium is to specifically highlight that in a country where there's well documented abuse by people who aren't actually sick or disabled, there is still wide support for continuation of the laws which guarantee unlimited sick leave.
It's meant to demonstrate the fallacy of the claim that the existence of medical leave automatically means lower levels of abuse when it could just as easily be societal acceptance of the abuse of suck benefits.
It's meant to demonstrate the fallacy of the claim that the existence of medical leave automatically means lower levels of abuse when it could just as easily be societal acceptance of the abuse of suck benefits.
You wouldn't think they were suck benefits if you had them.
If you'll re-read what I wrote, I never said that it wasn't abused. But unlike in the US, the levels of abuse have not meant that the right has been withdrawn yet. That to me indicates that the abuse levels became intolerable in the US, but are not in the UK.
(btw, Belgium is not in the UK, so I really cannot speak for what is happening in a country I know very little about. However, your choice of words seems to suggest that it's about long term sick/disabled, which is a problem in many countries I believe - the US also has similar problems I believe?)
But here is the important question. Has the level of flu infection been reduced in the UK versus the US because of this policy?
We have both a decent health care system and paid sick leave but the statistics here in Germany show the average of 3.2 Days that isn't much and certainly doesn't suggest wide spread abuse of the system. Yes we do have certain jobs who have a higher statisic but those are equaled off by those who have taken say none over the last years.
We are seeing a rapid increase in H1N1 but this is because the vaccines are not as readily availble as thought AND because a lot of issues cropped up due to the additives in the vaccines - this has caused many to say no thank you intead. Still out of 82.000 000 we have registered 41.000 cases and to date 9 deaths. I do think though that paid sick leave encourages people to stay home when it is something serious or very contaigious and that does add to containing these illness to some extent.
So far everything I've read seems to indicate the "stay home if you're sick" thing isn't having much effect. Either that or few are taking sick leave.
The complication I see is no matter how enlightened or how people and family friendly a sick leave policy is with a virus whose onset is hard and fast.
The risk with onset of H1N1 is in as little as three to six hours and where people can be infectious without having debilitating symptoms (any more) is that people don't realize they are infecting others, they become suddenly sick themselves or loyally and with a sense of responsibility (or fear of income loss or dismissal depending on what side of the Atlantic) go back to work (too early).
And potential employees with self-respect and integrity go to work elsewhere. 
