I find it fascinating that on Omni the furor is usually not about Muslims killed but rather about steps which keep Jews alive.
The largest killing of Muslims in recent years was the Iraq-Iran War, but you will find very little comment on it. Ditto for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
True, you will find criticism of the United States for the deaths in Iraq but almost nothing condemning Muslims there for killing fellow Muslims. That, apparently, is acceptable.
When Muslims are murdered in Pakistan by Al Qaeda, it passes here almost unmentioned.
On 9/11, American Muslims were among those killed in the attacks but at least one poster has dismissed the whole thing as a "few hundred" killed īn a "self-sacrifice operation" which America deserved.
Palestinians? They are being killed on a regular basis by each other as the Palestinian Authority and Hamas murder each other (and innocent bystanders). Of course, that is never brought up here.
What is decried in the harshest possible terms are steps Israel takes to save Jewish lives. Some of these, obviously, wind up with Palestinians being killed but others actually save Palestinian lives as well as Jewish ones.
For example, the Security Wall which Israel built to keep suicide bombers out of the country. It is has resulted in reducing such attacks to almost nothing but it is constantly decried here. Yes, it saves a lot of Jewish lives -- but it also saves the lives of those who were prepared to blow themselves up.
Another example is Israeli overflights of Gaza which create sonic booms. That has been bemoaned here repeatedly. Yet nobody was ever killed by a sonic boom. Indeed, by discouraging attacks by Hamas they have saved Israeli lives and, as Israel had no reason to counterattack, they also saved Palestinian lives.
In commenting on Arafat refusing Clinton's plan to establish a Palestinian state on 97% of the occupied land, one poster praised Arafat -- saying that it would have been an insult to the Palestinians.
Instead of getting the "insult" and their own country, the Palestinians got more war and many dead. This, apparently, was not important -- what was important was that some more Jews were killed.
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
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Posts: 19,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
I find it fascinating that on Omni the furor is usually not about Muslims killed but rather about steps which keep Jews alive.
The largest killing of Muslims in recent years was the Iraq-Iran War, but you will find very little comment on it. Ditto for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
True, you will find criticism of the United States for the deaths in Iraq but almost nothing condemning Muslims there for killing fellow Muslims. That, apparently, is acceptable.
When Muslims are murdered in Pakistan by Al Qaeda, it passes here almost unmentioned.
On 9/11, American Muslims were among those killed in the attacks but at least one poster has dismissed the whole thing as a "few hundred" killed īn a "self-sacrifice operation" which America deserved.
Palestinians? They are being killed on a regular basis by each other as the Palestinian Authority and Hamas murder each other (and innocent bystanders). Of course, that is never brought up here.
What is decried in the harshest possible terms are steps Israel takes to save Jewish lives. Some of these, obviously, wind up with Palestinians being killed but others actually save Palestinian lives as well as Jewish ones.
For example, the Security Wall which Israel built to keep suicide bombers out of the country. It is has resulted in reducing such attacks to almost nothing but it is constantly decried here. Yes, it saves a lot of Jewish lives -- but it also saves the lives of those who were prepared to blow themselves up.
Another example is Israeli overflights of Gaza which create sonic booms. That has been bemoaned here repeatedly. Yet nobody was ever killed by a sonic boom. Indeed, by discouraging attacks by Hamas they have saved Israeli lives and, as Israel had no reason to counterattack, they also saved Palestinian lives.
In commenting on Arafat refusing Clinton's plan to establish a Palestinian state on 97% of the occupied land, one poster praised Arafat -- saying that it would have been an insult to the Palestinians.
Instead of getting the "insult" and their own country, the Palestinians got more war and many dead. This, apparently, was not important -- what was important was that some more Jews were killed.
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
No, I dont think Moslems killing Moslims is acceptable. Nor Serbs killing Croatians nor one tribe in Angola killing another. But I view it as a different kind of unacceptable when the US government is funding it with my tax dollars and do feel compelled to comment on it in that case.
Oh, and if I were to be forced to pick one single person to blame the current situation in the mid east on it would be Yassir Arafat. He didnt realize that he should take the best deal he was going to get.
__________________
"And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go
Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row"
The largest killing of Muslims in recent years was the Iraq-Iran War, but you will find very little comment on it. Ditto for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
On what basis do you claim that the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait created a large number of casualties? Based on the public information available, it actually produced very few casualties for an invasion. Agreed, though, that the Iran-Iraq war created many many casualties. However, that also ended over 20 years ago, so probably not a hot topic today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
That is really overboard, don't you think? I think that most people that have been critical of Israel prefer that no one gets killed, whether they are Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Scientologist (well, let me rethink that last one... nope, not even Scientologists...), etc. I do wish that more people would bring up Darfur, Zimbabwe, Somalia, etc, but we don't. Those countries are not very connected to the West, so out of sight, out of mind. Israel, however, is very connected, and so it is a topic that is very top of mind.
Judging by a number of posts recently, it seems that the resident extremists are getting extremer. Is it full moon?
Many posters (including myself) are on record as condemning killing and senseless violence of all kinds. All human life is seen as being equally precious.
Many of us are also particularly critical of violence instigated so-called in the name of God for irrational religious excuses such as that supported by war-mongering, crusading Christian fundamentalists, vengeful, jihadic Islamic terrorists and Jewish "the right to preemptive, offensive, lethal self-defense trumps everything else in the Torah" Zionists. Murderous behavior in the name of God makes them all equally loony in the eyes of the rational. Those who pillage and murder should be condemned. Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity. Nevertheless, particularly heinous to observe are acts where the strong and powerful persecute the weak or where the self-righteous declare themselves above the law (such as the unprovoked, offensive attack on Iraq and subsequent war crimes in violation of international law, for example).
It is however IMO a fair point to ask why civil wars, domestic genocides, domestic homicide rates and rampant national racism seem to get such little attention in public opinion, the press, etc. in comparison to violence between groups or between countries.
At the same time, flyertalk is hardly a representative place in terms of worldwide discussions. The topics that get attention here tend to be those that interest the self-selected, self-interested, smug group that posts in a parochial place that is oriented towards the petty and penny pinching minutiae of gaming glorified green stamps trading programs of the major airlines for personal profit, the appearance of superior treatment and the cheap thrills of being first in line. Not always a pretty sight and hopefully not a representative group of the entire world. Not many Darfur refugees and their champions, perhaps, but plenty of Scots, Dutchmen, Calvinists, underpaid enlisted men and Jews for example. All groups stereotypically known, whether right or wrong, for having deep pockets but short arms. Flame away.
Last edited by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM; Oct 31, 09 at 5:12 pm.
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
I disagree with your assessment.
Rather, I think what we are seeing is an attitude I have seen all too often amongst those on the left that it's our actions that matter rather than the deaths that matter. For the good guys to kill one innocent is worse than the bad guys killing 1000 innocents. It's about blame, not results.
There's also the problem that many have bought into the leftist propaganda that blames Israel for everything that goes wrong over there. Those on their side can't be evil, thus anything the terrorists do is a reaction to western actions.
I think it's only a small minority that would actually like to see the Jews dead, although there is a larger group that would prefer to stick their head in the sand when faced with a choice with no good options.
Rather, I think what we are seeing is an attitude I have seen all too often amongst those on the left that it's our actions that matter rather than the deaths that matter. For the good guys to kill one innocent is worse than the bad guys killing 1000 innocents. It's about blame, not results.
I would buy that if they weren't denouncing non-lethal steps (eg: the security wall and the sonic booms) that Israel takes. These kill no Arabs (indeed, as I mentioned earlier) actually save Arab lives -- but that doesn't matter. They also save Jewish lives and that is what the whole problem is.
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Posts: 19,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
I disagree with your assessment.
Rather, I think what we are seeing is an attitude I have seen all too often amongst those on the left that it's our actions that matter rather than the deaths that matter. For the good guys to kill one innocent is worse than the bad guys killing 1000 innocents. It's about blame, not results.
There's also the problem that many have bought into the leftist propaganda that blames Israel for everything that goes wrong over there. Those on their side can't be evil, thus anything the terrorists do is a reaction to western actions.
I think it's only a small minority that would actually like to see the Jews dead, although there is a larger group that would prefer to stick their head in the sand when faced with a choice with no good options.
Im not sticking my head in the sand. I am, however, saying that it is difficult to argue that US foreign policy in the middle east, or for that matter Cuba, has been productive for anyone over the last 50 years or so. If that is indeed true, I dont see the point in continuing either policy.
__________________
"And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go
Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row"
I find it fascinating that on Omni the furor is usually not about Muslims killed but rather about steps which keep Jews alive.
The largest killing of Muslims in recent years was the Iraq-Iran War, but you will find very little comment on it. Ditto for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
True, you will find criticism of the United States for the deaths in Iraq but almost nothing condemning Muslims there for killing fellow Muslims. That, apparently, is acceptable.
When Muslims are murdered in Pakistan by Al Qaeda, it passes here almost unmentioned.
On 9/11, American Muslims were among those killed in the attacks but at least one poster has dismissed the whole thing as a "few hundred" killed īn a "self-sacrifice operation" which America deserved.
Palestinians? They are being killed on a regular basis by each other as the Palestinian Authority and Hamas murder each other (and innocent bystanders). Of course, that is never brought up here.
What is decried in the harshest possible terms are steps Israel takes to save Jewish lives. Some of these, obviously, wind up with Palestinians being killed but others actually save Palestinian lives as well as Jewish ones.
For example, the Security Wall which Israel built to keep suicide bombers out of the country. It is has resulted in reducing such attacks to almost nothing but it is constantly decried here. Yes, it saves a lot of Jewish lives -- but it also saves the lives of those who were prepared to blow themselves up.
Another example is Israeli overflights of Gaza which create sonic booms. That has been bemoaned here repeatedly. Yet nobody was ever killed by a sonic boom. Indeed, by discouraging attacks by Hamas they have saved Israeli lives and, as Israel had no reason to counterattack, they also saved Palestinian lives.
In commenting on Arafat refusing Clinton's plan to establish a Palestinian state on 97% of the occupied land, one poster praised Arafat -- saying that it would have been an insult to the Palestinians.
Instead of getting the "insult" and their own country, the Palestinians got more war and many dead. This, apparently, was not important -- what was important was that some more Jews were killed.
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
I would buy that if they weren't denouncing non-lethal steps (eg: the security wall and the sonic booms) that Israel takes. These kill no Arabs (indeed, as I mentioned earlier) actually save Arab lives -- but that doesn't matter. They also save Jewish lives and that is what the whole problem is.
I've read stories that Israeli security measures have prevented some people from reaching hospitals in time to receive treatment for life-threatening illness and disrupt many people's ability to earn a living. So my impression is that walls and border controls are not universally perceived as life-saving boons. (Has the wall saved more Palestinian lives than it's cost? That calculation might require some tricky accounting). However, I haven't seen this with my own eyes, so I'm sure someone with direct experience will step in to present facts that contradict these stories. I guess the only way I can know for sure is by visiting and seeing for myself.
Its clear from both of your comments that you just don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
I disagree with your assessment.
Rather, I think what we are seeing is an attitude I have seen all too often amongst those on the left that it's our actions that matter rather than the deaths that matter. For the good guys to kill one innocent is worse than the bad guys killing 1000 innocents. It's about blame, not results.
No, we are saying that making it about "good guys" versus "bad guys" is part of the problem. As long as you see Israelis as the good guys and Arabs or Palestinians as the bad guys, or vice versa, you will never have peace. The conservative mantra is to make it good versus evil. It it not. It is two sets of people, each with their own virtues and flaws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
There's also the problem that many have bought into the leftist propaganda that blames Israel for everything that goes wrong over there. Those on their side can't be evil, thus anything the terrorists do is a reaction to western actions.
No, you are simply restating conservative propaganda to paint the left view as extremist. We are saying that terrorism is a tactic that is used in absence of a military. We are not saying it is justifiable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
I think it's only a small minority that would actually like to see the Jews dead, although there is a larger group that would prefer to stick their head in the sand when faced with a choice with no good options.
Wrong again on the "stick their head in the sand" comment. What we are saying is that both sides should make movements toward peace, and neither side should make moves that would specifically inhibit peace. The reason that Israel gets most of the attention is that Israel has most of the power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
I would buy that if they weren't denouncing non-lethal steps (eg: the security wall and the sonic booms) that Israel takes. These kill no Arabs (indeed, as I mentioned earlier) actually save Arab lives -- but that doesn't matter. They also save Jewish lives and that is what the whole problem is.
So we should just accept all non-lethal actions without question? The main reason that the wall is such an issue is that a) it does not follow the 1967 borders, and b) it causes severe hardship to many Palestinian communities by unnecessarily restricting travel. And as for the sonic booms, is it really necessary to fly supersonically over Gazan airspace? What is exactly the purpose?
I think the primary flaw with the conservative philosophy is the unwillingness to even attempt to see things from someone else's point of view.
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Posts: 9,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jib71
I've read stories that Israeli security measures have prevented some people from reaching hospitals in time to receive treatment for life-threatening illness and disrupt many people's ability to earn a living. So my impression is that walls and border controls are not universally perceived as life-saving boons. (Has the wall saved more Palestinian lives than it's cost? That calculation might require some tricky accounting). However, I haven't seen this with my own eyes, so I'm sure someone with direct experience will step in to present facts that contradict these stories. I guess the only way I can know for sure is by visiting and seeing for myself.
Jib, this is one of the most intelligent posts I have seen on FT. Too many people want to "arm chair quarterback" things and not go see it for themselves! Kudos and hope you chose to do that someday. You will be shocked how different it is from the evening news.
Related to the hospitals and work, let me throw out something for you to think on. What many people don't/won't grasp is that the PA won't/can't develop a decent infrastructure, so those hospitals and jobs are in Israel, what the PA wants to claim is a "foreign country" from them. So lets say your job was in Mexico and so was the healthcare. Woud it be Mexico's fault if they locked down their borders and decided US citizends couldnt get in, or slowed down the process to cross the borders so it took you longer to get to work or medical care?
The PA wants it both ways, they want to be their own country, they want all the benefits of being a country but don't want to have the responsibility for being a country.
A second fact people don't want to grasp, is that everyone living in any of the "settlements" has to go through checkpoints, not just Pals. Every Jew goes through checkpoints when they cross those borders also. I visited a friend last week in Ma'ale Adumim and had to do the same.
I've read stories that Israeli security measures have prevented some people from reaching hospitals in time to receive treatment for life-threatening illness and disrupt many people's ability to earn a living.
And those stories are absolutely true. It was not the case originally -- when ambulances were allowed free access -- but it became the case after the Palestinians started using ambulances to bring in suicide bombers.
Should Israel -- or any other country -- give terrorists a way to enter without any checks?
As far as it disrupting people's ability to earn a living is concerned, again, this is true. Many Palestinians worked in Israel for years without any problem (and Israelis routinely went to the West Bank for shopping). Again, this ended when terrorists recruited workers to kill Israelis.
You are, in fact, proving my point in this thread. Dead Palestinians don't bother anyone (including the Palestinian leadership). Live Israelis are what they object to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oenophilist
The main reason that the wall is such an issue is that a) it does not follow the 1967 borders
Uh, what 1967 borders? The ones which the Palestinians have never accepted?
Why should Israel respect these borders when Palestine refuses to? The security fence is not intended to be a border -- it is intended to keep terrorists away from Israelis and hence is located where it is most effective in doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oenophilist
And as for the sonic booms, is it really necessary to fly supersonically over Gazan airspace? What is exactly the purpose?
Well, no, it is not really necessary. Israel could respond to attempted terrorist attacks by bombing Gaza (and often does respond in that way) but isn't it preferable merely to have the sonic booms as a reminder of what Gaza could face if the attempts are continued?
Incidentally, I get those same sonic booms over my house on a regular basis and they are in no way problematic.
You are, in fact, proving my point in this thread. Dead Palestinians don't bother anyone (including the Palestinian leadership). Live Israelis are what they object to.
This is an outrageous statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
The security fence is not intended to be a border -- it is intended to keep terrorists away from Israelis and hence is located where it is most effective in doing that.
Regardless of its intent, it is a de facto border.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
Well, no, it is not really necessary. Israel could respond to attempted terrorist attacks by bombing Gaza (and often does respond in that way) but isn't it preferable merely to have the sonic booms as a reminder of what Gaza could face if the attempts are continued?
So in other words its a threat and show of power. The question that needs to be asked is, if you were a Palestinian, what would your reaction be? Would it calm you or anger you? Will this create more hatred or less?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
Incidentally, I get those same sonic booms over my house on a regular basis and they are in no way problematic.
Thats because they are symbolic of something different to you than to a Palestinian.
Flame away.
