Yes, it is. The sad fact is that it is also a true statement.
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Originally Posted by oenophilist
So in other words its a threat and show of power. The question that needs to be asked is, if you were a Palestinian, what would your reaction be? Would it calm you or anger you? Will this create more hatred or less?
Let's see -- I try to kill you. Instead of striking back at me, you give me a warning and show me how you could have killed me. I would be damned grateful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oenophilist
Thats because they are symbolic of something different to you than to a Palestinian.
All the moaning and complaining about the sonic booms centered around the impact they had on little children -- frightening them and sometimes waking them up.
Young Israeli children react the same way as young Palestinian children (and neither knows anything about political symbols). If it is not problematic for the children where I live, it is not problematic for the Palestinian children either.
You seem to have missed a key point in that article, so I will bold face it for you:
Quote:
The prisoners' document, also known as the National Reconciliation Document, was drafted by members of different Palestinian factions including Fatah and Hamas, held in an Israeli prison. It calls for the "establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital on all the territories occupied in 1967," but does not explicitly recognize Israel's right to exist within its pre-1967 borders.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
You seem to have missed a key point in that article, so I will bold face it for you:
But that's not what you said. You said they don't accept the 1967 borders. They do. It's just that you want them to accept those borders *and* recognize Israel's right to exist. Those are two separate issues.
Palestinian leadership has, more than once, offered to return to 1967 borders in exchange for a truce.
But that's not what you said. You said they don't accept the 1967 borders. They do. It's just that you want them to accept those borders *and* recognize Israel's right to exist. Those are two separate issues.
Palestinian leadership has, more than once, offered to return to 1967 borders in exchange for a truce.
"Return to 1967 borders"???? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? It would have to be Israel, not the Palestinians, who returned to the 1967 borders.
Hamas, incidentally, has offered a 10 year truce in exchange for a state with the 1967 borders. That is one heck of a deal for Israel, isn't it?
In exchange for giving the Palestinians a state and withdrawing to the 1967 borders, Israel gets a full 10 years of not being attacked by the army which the new Palestinian state would be building.
I would buy that if they weren't denouncing non-lethal steps (eg: the security wall and the sonic booms) that Israel takes. These kill no Arabs (indeed, as I mentioned earlier) actually save Arab lives -- but that doesn't matter. They also save Jewish lives and that is what the whole problem is.
So, if I crank my stereo really loud, that saves lives? Really?
Dude, you are an old man, you don't have long on this earth. You really shouldn't spend your remaining years so bitter.
Do you stand on your porch and shout at kids playing their music too loud too?
So, if I crank my stereo really loud, that saves lives? Really?
Dude, you are an old man, you don't have long on this earth. You really shouldn't spend your remaining years so bitter.
Do you stand on your porch and shout at kids playing their music too loud too?
A fairer comparison would be if the kids were shooting at me and I played my music loud to scare them off -- and then the world complained that my music might be hurting the kids' ears.
Yes, it is. The sad fact is that it is also a true statement.
No, its not. The sad fact is that you think its a true statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovster
Let's see -- I try to kill you. Instead of striking back at me, you give me a warning and show me how you could have killed me. I would be damned grateful.
Wow, that is arrogant. Who tries to kill you? All Palestinians? Most Palestinians? Who specifically are you trying to warn? You want to let the entire population of Palestinians know that you have the capability to commit genocide, and that your generosity is keeping you from doing it, therefore the Palestinians should be grateful???? Instead of doing things that make Palestinians hate Israelis more, how about taking actions that make Palestinians not hate Israelis?
A fairer comparison would be if the kids were shooting at me and I played my music loud to scare them off -- and then the world complained that my music might be hurting the kids' ears.
Well, you missed the part about then going and shooting the kids' friends, relatives, neighbors and anyone else that lived in the area.
Or have you forgotten the actions of your country(s)?
Well, you missed the part about then going and shooting the kids' friends, relatives, neighbors and anyone else that lived in the area.
Or have you forgotten the actions of your country(s)?
You're right. No other country would ever do that.
America certainly did not drop bombs on Japanese cities.
Britain made certain that no German civilians were killed in World War II.
Or have you forgotten the actions of your country?
Mind you, I am not blaming either America or Britain: when a country is being attacked, its government has an obligation to take all possible steps to win the war as quickly as possible.
Unfortunately, this invariably means that civilians will, indeed, be killed -- and this is epecially true when the enemy is hiding among the civilian population.
Israel would be thrilled and delighted if Hamas or Hizbollah were to meet it on an open battlefield but that is not the way they prefer to fight.
Perhaps it is time for you to grow up and face reality -- not live in the La La Land which you would like the world to be.
I find it fascinating that on Omni the furor is usually not about Muslims killed but rather about steps which keep Jews alive.
The largest killing of Muslims in recent years was the Iraq-Iran War, but you will find very little comment on it. Ditto for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
True, you will find criticism of the United States for the deaths in Iraq but almost nothing condemning Muslims there for killing fellow Muslims. That, apparently, is acceptable.
When Muslims are murdered in Pakistan by Al Qaeda, it passes here almost unmentioned.
On 9/11, American Muslims were among those killed in the attacks but at least one poster has dismissed the whole thing as a "few hundred" killed īn a "self-sacrifice operation" which America deserved.
Palestinians? They are being killed on a regular basis by each other as the Palestinian Authority and Hamas murder each other (and innocent bystanders). Of course, that is never brought up here.
What is decried in the harshest possible terms are steps Israel takes to save Jewish lives. Some of these, obviously, wind up with Palestinians being killed but others actually save Palestinian lives as well as Jewish ones.
For example, the Security Wall which Israel built to keep suicide bombers out of the country. It is has resulted in reducing such attacks to almost nothing but it is constantly decried here. Yes, it saves a lot of Jewish lives -- but it also saves the lives of those who were prepared to blow themselves up.
Another example is Israeli overflights of Gaza which create sonic booms. That has been bemoaned here repeatedly. Yet nobody was ever killed by a sonic boom. Indeed, by discouraging attacks by Hamas they have saved Israeli lives and, as Israel had no reason to counterattack, they also saved Palestinian lives.
In commenting on Arafat refusing Clinton's plan to establish a Palestinian state on 97% of the occupied land, one poster praised Arafat -- saying that it would have been an insult to the Palestinians.
Instead of getting the "insult" and their own country, the Palestinians got more war and many dead. This, apparently, was not important -- what was important was that some more Jews were killed.
I have only one request of these posters: Stop the BS and say what you mean. Admit that you don't give a crap how many Palestinians are killed, what really upsets you is that not enough Jews are being murdered.
What a ridiculous, offensive and thoroughly demented thesis this is (IMHO). There are a thousand holes in the incoherent argument presented above, but a few are particularly striking with regard to the situation on the ground in Palestine...
There is little one can say to someone who thinks offering 97% of an area that has already been reduced by 85% and therefore little more than a moth eaten 12% of the original occupied land, is a good deal.
Similarly, there is not much one can say to someone who thinks the main complaint of people who survived the most brutal and intense air attack of the century was the noise of the aircraft flying overhead.
The implication that everyone who rightly criticizes the most reactionary, racist and religiously bigoted government in the Middle East is antisemitic and wants Jews dead is extremely offensive, but on the other hand I think this is one of the tactics of hasbara. I don't know for sure, so perhaps someone can fill us in?
In answer to your first question: The Palestinianian leadership and their followers.
In answer to your second question: The Palestinianian leadership and their followers.
In answer to your third question: The Palestinianian leadership and their followers.
In answer to your fourth question: The Palestinianian leadership and their followers.
But, please, don't take my word for it -- read for yourself what the leadership says.
I just say again, wow. If you really believe that the Palestinian leadership and their followers want to exterminate all Jews, you will never have peace. I sincerely hope that the Palestinians have more respect for you than you have for them.
