Programs: DL Plat, SK Silver, BA Silver - Gift, CO Plat - Match
Posts: 3,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopdeck90210
What "gifts" are you referring to? Lost jobs at the Crown room in SEA? Downgraded positions for some of the longstanding TA's and GA's at SEA? Lost jobs in Chisholm and MSP? What am I missing here?
NW doesn't make money as currently constituted. It is as simple as that. They are going to have to dramatically restructure their operations, with or without a merger. It will involve substantial job cuts. It will involve pain for FFers. It will involve even further capacity cuts. It will result in a landscape that differs dramatically from what we have experienced.
By trying to stop the merger, Oberstar is wasting his time, the airlines' time, and the voters' time. The anti-merger crowd seems to want the impossible. They want to retain the status quo. They want to "save" jobs. They want to preserve schedules. The won't be able to do any of it. The airlines are going to slash routes. They are going to slash jobs. They are going to slash the average FFers bennies.
Everyone has a choice. They can accept the inevitable increase in prices, decrease in flights, and decrease in perks, and get on with their lives. Or, they can continue to pretend that some silly lawsuit, or threats to move to another "better" carrier, or congressional hearings will prevent the inevitable increase in prices, decrease in flights, and decrease in perks. Most that choose the latter are only deluding themselves, and I'll be happy to smugly say "I told you so" when they fail. Unfortunately when idiots like Oberstar choose the latter, they are deluding the public, and that is not quite so funny. Still funny, but a little less so.
Programs: Delta Gold Medallion,AA,USairways,Midwest Airlines, National Emerald Club
Posts: 1,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarnette
NW doesn't make money as currently constituted. It is as simple as that. They are going to have to dramatically restructure their operations, with or without a merger. It will involve substantial job cuts. It will involve pain for FFers. It will involve even further capacity cuts. It will result in a landscape that differs dramatically from what we have experienced.
Let's not delude ourselves. Delta does not make money as currently constituted. The merged Delta/NW will have to dramtically restructure its operations as well.
If the choice is between an airline headquartered in MN or Atlanta and one is a Minnesota politician, its seems an obvious course of action. BTW won't Delta owe the state of MN quite a chunk of change when its moves the headquarters to Atlanta?
If Oberstar succeeds, you'll have British Airways, NW and DL competing to sell you a ticket SEA-LHR.
Capiche?
-A
No. DL would never fly SEA-LHR if it remained independent. Never. Ever. Ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopdeck90210
What "gifts" are you referring to? Lost jobs at the Crown room in SEA? Downgraded positions for some of the longstanding TA's and GA's at SEA? Lost jobs in Chisholm and MSP? What am I missing here?
-A
A few are being sacrificed for the well being of many. Jobs are going to be lost with or without a merger.
Let's not delude ourselves. Delta does not make money as currently constituted. The merged Delta/NW will have to dramtically restructure its operations as well.
It didn't in Q1, but is projecting a profit (excluding one-time items) in Q2...
Programs: DL Plat, SK Silver, BA Silver - Gift, CO Plat - Match
Posts: 3,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrah
Let's not delude ourselves. Delta does not make money as currently constituted. The merged Delta/NW will have to dramtically restructure its operations as well.
I don't dispute that they will have to change, but I think the merger does give the combined entity some advantages that they can't achieve on their own. In particular, they get a fleet that is better equipped to transition to an international focus. The addition of the 747s and A330s bring some planes at the larger end that balance nicely with DL's 767s and their 777s. And, there will be some savings from eliminating overhead costs. Finally, DL brings NW a JFK hub, which is extremely valuable, and DL gets an Asian-focus. There is no guarantee that these pluses will win the day and make the marriage work, but they are still legitimate positives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrah
If the choice is between an airline headquartered in MN or Atlanta and one is a Minnesota politician, its seems an obvious course of action.
But it is short-term thinking on Oberstar's part. At the end of the day, MSP will see traffic only if there is local demand (I think there is). And MSP will keep jobs as long as it is a competitive place to do those activities. If MSP is so uncompetitive that we can say with certainty that the jobs will shift to Atlanta, then what does that say about NW's future as a stand-alone company? Politicians only sc**w things up when they try to micro-manage the labor market.
Programs: Delta Gold Medallion,AA,USairways,Midwest Airlines, National Emerald Club
Posts: 1,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxf24
It didn't in Q1, but is projecting a profit (excluding one-time items) in Q2...
Like you said, lets not delude ourselves.
Yes, I am aware of the forward projection; we'll have to see.
I view the merger as inevitable, but hopefully MN taxpayers will get their funds back when the HQ moves to Atlanta.
Also hopefully DOJ will require Delta to give up all its gates on the E concourse at MSP as a requirment of the merger. Minneapolis needs more LCC competition.
Northwest and Delta are no longer in competition with each other... they're in bed already:
Of course, this has nothing to do with the high SEA rent increases that have been talked about in multiple other threads..
This seems to make sense to me.. have one club there shared by partners.. To help offset some of the job losses by the CRC closing, offer similar positions with another airline..
Also hopefully DOJ will require Delta to give up all its gates on the E concourse at MSP as a requirment of the merger. Minneapolis needs more LCC competition.
I fully agree. Restraining or restricting the monopolistic behavior of MAC and NW in MSP would benefit all consumers.
Programs: AS MVP Gold, NW/DL Plat (See My DL Pictures on Facebook)
Posts: 1,251
Clarification
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxf24
No. DL would never fly SEA-LHR if it remained independent. Never. Ever. Ever.
I wasn't referring to a direct DL route SEA-LHR. You would need to connect in Atlanta or New York, of course. But it is an alternative in SEA if you are trying to get "across the pond".
I wasn't referring to a direct DL route SEA-LHR. You would need to connect in Atlanta or New York, of course. But it is an alternative in SEA if you are trying to get "across the pond".
-A
It still is, and will be, an alternative (among others).
Programs: DL Plat, SK Silver, BA Silver - Gift, CO Plat - Match
Posts: 3,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopdeck90210
I wasn't referring to a direct DL route SEA-LHR. You would need to connect in Atlanta or New York, of course. But it is an alternative in SEA if you are trying to get "across the pond".
Once you start throwing in connections, things get really interesting. By my count, to get to London, you could still choose from (at least) BA, AA, CO, UA, DL/NW, US, LH, AC, SK, some combination with VS, and perhaps even NZ. All would be relatively realistic options. Even if we assume that all of the alliance-level JVs come to pass, you are still looking at something like BA/AA, DL/NW, UA/CO/LH/SK, US, VS, and NZ. Six options still seems pretty healthy to me.
All of which is to say that blocking the merger will not materially improve the number of options for flyers on this route. Indeed, I would think that it will not materially improve the number of options for any major international route. It probably won't materially improve the number of options for most major domestic destinations. It might (I repeat, might) improve the number of options to secondary and tertiary markets, but the recent cutbacks suggest that such communities will be losing access no matter what happens. Simply put, I think the concerns about restricted competition are waaaay overblown.
The only tactic that US domestic airlines have applied to move forward during the past few years is to screw someone else while treading water: screw the mechanics, screw the FAs, screw the pilots, screw the shareholders, screw the creditors, screw the taxpayer ... and when there is no one else to screw, who gets screwed?
Well well... The airline that you admire so much, the airline so-much-better-managed-than-any-US-outfit-around just got nailed : "Air France-KLM and three other airlines agreed to pay fines totaling USD$504 million to settle US price-fixing charges involving vast shipments of consumer goods ranging from electronics to medicines, the US Justice Department said on Thursday."
Well well... The airline that you admire so much, the airline so-much-better-managed-than-any-US-outfit-around just got nailed : "Air France-KLM and three other airlines agreed to pay fines totaling USD$504 million to settle US price-fixing charges involving vast shipments of consumer goods ranging from electronics to medicines, the US Justice Department said on Thursday."
Thursday's announcement marked the latest in a series of cargo shipping settlements over the last two years. Earlier, British Airways, Korean Air, Qantas and Japan Airlines filed similar agreements as part of the investigation.
In all, airlines have agreed to pay $1.2 billion in fines -- what O'Connor called "the highest total amount of fines ever imposed in a criminal antitrust investigation."
The investigation is continuing.
Who will be next?
Too bad management of Enron, Countryside, Bear Stearns, "no bid, billion dollar fraud" KBR, Blackwater, etc. etc. etc. for the most part won't be nailed for their economy-destroying crimes. Pays to have friends in high places in the U S of A I guess.
Last edited by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM; Jun 27, 08 at 1:15 am.
Programs: Platinum Marriott/Starwood; Diamond Hyatt/Hilton; Exec Plat AA; 1K United
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrah
Also hopefully DOJ will require Delta to give up all its gates on the E concourse at MSP as a requirment of the merger. Minneapolis needs more LCC competition.
How about "any significant LCC competition". I really dislike flying SWA, but I love what SWA does to prices of any airport when they announce flights into it. With R/T ticketing from MCI/STL/OMA/CID etc direct to MSP now hitting $1,400 and higher, something has to be done to stop this obvious price gouging of the short notice business traveler.
Programs: Delta Gold Medallion,AA,USairways,Midwest Airlines, National Emerald Club
Posts: 1,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchTravel73
I really dislike flying SWA, but I love what SWA does to prices of any airport when they announce flights into it.
Well, no one likes the cattle call, but other than that I've always enjoyed the WN product; WN coach is superior to NW coach.
MAC needs to get serious about encouraging competition. The Delta/NW merger is a good opportunity to revaluate the competitive layout at MSP; particulary since NW seems to be racheting down its relationship to the state of MN.
Clarification
