As a DL flyer I'm certainly happy along with all of my Skymiles colleagues that DL acquired NW... DL just offers a more superb product.
I wouldn't call either airlines' hard product at all "superb," frankly, but concede that DL economy has it all over the NW prison-transport meme. New WBC is at least even with BE, if not better.
But looking beyond hard inflight products, I think the assertion that SkyMiles is "more superb" than WorldPerks is flatly absurd. NW's hub transfer experience has it all over DL's (DTW actually is a "superb" hub, with MSP not far behind; CVG and ATL are IME unpleasant places to connect).
Yes, we know it's an erasure, not a merger. Yes, we know DL won. No, it's not a just or happy outcome.
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Originally Posted by DHAST
I'd be very very surprised if NW allows their unions to veto a merger. Apparently you don't know for a fact that they can, otherwise you would not have said "if union agreement is required."
So how does this work? Do NW employees engage in a slowdown now to "protest" the merger, or wait until after the companies merge and then slowdown? Oops, if they wait til later, the companies have already merged...
So are the DL employees on board or not board?
Employee agreement is required - that goes without saying. Merging without an employee agreement affects collective bargaining arrangements, contracts, etc. There is no way to do this without an employee agreement.
As of today, it appears the pilots are once again threatening a work slowdown or even stoppage to ensure any merger benefits and synergies are lost by the time the companies join, rendering the merger exercise moot. Worse, a larger job action could send either or both companies back to Ch11, or even 7.
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I'll give you that. But watching a half dozen carriers fold has got to be a sobering experience. Makes you wonder if the grass is really greener somewhere else.
If your own grass is turning brown, sometimes one considers they have nothing to lose by jumping - or sometimes anger/frustration gets the best of them. If the employees decline the merger, a work stoppage ensues, and management refuses to capitulate, sending the company into bankruptcy, the shareholders will go after management, not labor. The shareholders are interested in the preservation of their investment, not who is waving the biggest set.
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Do you have statistics to back that up? What standards have dropped to the lowest levels since you can remember? Care to quote specific examples?
There are plenty of statistics and discussion on this fact, even within this forum. Hiring standards at regional carriers have dropped from ATP+more than 1,500 total+more than 1000 multi+more than 500 actual instrument all the way down to - 400-500 total time and 200 multi/instrument. As long as you have your Commercial/Multi/Instrument, Class 1 medical, clean history, pass the interview, you're in - they will take care of your training, although often after you sign a contract to work there 'x' years.
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You do realize that any employee who quits his/her job starts over as junior man on someone else's seniority list, right? That means bottom of the barrel seniority (oh crap, that's what's at issues in the merger) and bottom of the barrel pay. The hiring minimums that have dropped that I am aware of apply to regional airlines; those jobs pay $25k for the first year, and it goes up incrementally from there. Are you implying that NW mainline pilots are willing to jump ship to have worse conditions than they have now? Those with jobs at a post-NW merger will have a better life than those that leave the company, with very, very few exceptions.
Many airline labor decisions are not based on logic, so I don't expect these unions and labor groups to all of a sudden start making logical decisions. If I was the CEO of NW or DL, and my labor force, or a critical portion of it was going to either strike me or bring my operations to a crawl, and I was already bleeding cash and customers like crazy in the face of merger uncertainty and 115/b oil, I'd probably decide to put off the merger and figure out how to make labor happy.
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Oh, one more thing... if the merger does go through, and DL/NW keep only the wholly owned subsidiary carriers, that means Skywest pilots by and large and ASA pilots will be out on the street looking for new jobs. Can't forget Pinnacle. Ooops... the competition for new jobs is already getting tough.
Remember how Virgin America is expanding - and many NW pilots have a lot of experience flying A320/319 jets. If was VA, expecting to grow my network quickly and easily, I'd be happy to take on a clutch of experienced, professional crew members already trained on type and ready to go.
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Uh... they can't strike without a whole host of pre-existing conditions. Job actions? Sure. "Work to rule" is one of the most popular. Working to rule, however, is not a strike. Don't confuse the two.
I'm not confused - any job action would have the same effect. A strike would kill the airline in days, while a slowdown would kill it over a few weeks.
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Bottom line here is that if I were management, I'd be *very* comfortable playing a game of chicken with my labor.
Given your cash burn rate, exploding operational costs and the potential loss of customers given the merger uncertainty, you might find yourself on the hook to you shareholders for the loss of the company.
9/11 was a total shutdown of a few days with a slow ramp-up - and the airlines en masse went from 'happy days' to 'we're all going out of business'. Just think how a shutdown or slowdown would play out now, with your cash burn rate and that oil which keeps going up and up and up...everyday...higher and higher.
__________________ Rich and 50 is the same as middle-class and 30
Remember how Virgin America is expanding - and many NW pilots have a lot of experience flying A320/319 jets. If was VA, expecting to grow my network quickly and easily, I'd be happy to take on a clutch of experienced, professional crew members already trained on type and ready to go.
That'd be a smart career move. There is little to indicate VX will last the year.
"Executives of the two companies said Tuesday that a new and more flexible contract with Delta pilots would allow the merged company to begin swapping planes in an effort to lift sales soon after completing its merger. For example, using Northwest’s big Boeing 747s or its Airbus A330-300s from Delta’s hubs in Atlanta or at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York would take advantage of high demand for business travel there. Delta has only the smaller 777s."
Anderson specifically mentioned taking the 747s from the MSP market to the ATL market
What are the loads (WBC vs Y) on the DTW-Japan and MSP-Japan 744 flights? From my experience, J is full on the DTW flights, but Y is not (though I have heard others say that Y is chronically overbooked). DTW could probably make use of double daily high density J 777, though I don't know if Delta has enough 777 to make a subfleet of high-J planes.
In what ways does DL beat out NW economy? I've ridden Y in the A330, and it's been just fine.
How did you feel about your last ride in seat 42B of a 757-300?
NW's A330 Y seats constitute a tiny percentage of the NW economy product. I was basically referring to domestic economy.
NW: no IFE, no blankets / pillows, no real food, aging threadbare seats... the back half of a NW 757-300 is maybe the worst coach experience in the country, except maybe any seat on a US plane.
DL: leather, more renovated interiors, IFE, seatback TV on an increasing number of 757s/767s, better food for sale, "signature cocktails."
In an apples-to-apples back-cabin hard-product comparison, DL is better. Not "more superb," but less awful.
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Originally Posted by Carolinian
Minnesota is a swing state. Georgia probably isn't. Its the swing states that get the political attention.
Exactly! foment enough trouble in the swing state and you can swing it the other way. That's why MN loses and GA wins!
Politics has been fully accounted for. That's why Delta is spinning the fairytale about " no hub cutbacks". After the merger is approved - that's when the closures will be announced.
Midwest is the poster child. Management spun the "savethecookie" campaign. After the merger Skyway was axed and furloughs are on the way.
Employee agreement is required - that goes without saying. Merging without an employee agreement affects collective bargaining arrangements, contracts, etc. There is no way to do this without an employee agreement.
As of today, it appears the pilots are once again threatening a work slowdown or even stoppage to ensure any merger benefits and synergies are lost by the time the companies join, rendering the merger exercise moot. Worse, a larger job action could send either or both companies back to Ch11, or even 7.
Somewhere between this post and your last post, someone posted some commentary by an industry analyst (Swelberg, I believe, at MIT) who said pretty much what I did -- labor cannot formally stop this merger. I still believe that to be true. However, I do agree with you that labor can engage in job actions that would make things ugly. Again, though, the point is that labor cannot formally stop this merger.
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If your own grass is turning brown, sometimes one considers they have nothing to lose by jumping - or sometimes anger/frustration gets the best of them. If the employees decline the merger, a work stoppage ensues, and management refuses to capitulate, sending the company into bankruptcy, the shareholders will go after management, not labor. The shareholders are interested in the preservation of their investment, not who is waving the biggest set.
And what, exactly, is going to happen? I'm not familiar with the legal mechanisms for which shareholders can go after management.
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There are plenty of statistics and discussion on this fact, even within this forum. Hiring standards at regional carriers have dropped from ATP+more than 1,500 total+more than 1000 multi+more than 500 actual instrument all the way down to - 400-500 total time and 200 multi/instrument. As long as you have your Commercial/Multi/Instrument, Class 1 medical, clean history, pass the interview, you're in - they will take care of your training, although often after you sign a contract to work there 'x' years.
Those aren't jobs that big-time NW pilots are banking on as "plan b." The widebody pilots will certainly make more on enemployment than they would at a regional (granted, enemployment only lasts a limited time). The training contract hasn't been around for several years, unless it has somehow manifested itself lately. Given that the regionals are desperate, somehow I doubt it has.
I'm aware that the regionals are hiring, but I'm also aware that those are undesirable jobs for current mainline pilots.
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I'd probably decide to put off the merger and figure out how to make labor happy.
I don't think NW has ever once in its lifetime taken a step back and tried to figure out how to make labor happy. Again, I wave the AMFA mechanics strike of a few years ago as a sign that management can and will stomp all over labor if it wants.
Remember how Virgin America is expanding - and many NW pilots have a lot of experience flying A320/319 jets. If was VA, expecting to grow my network quickly and easily, I'd be happy to take on a clutch of experienced, professional crew members already trained on type and ready to go.
I'm not confused - any job action would have the same effect. A strike would kill the airline in days, while a slowdown would kill it over a few weeks.
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9/11 was a total shutdown of a few days with a slow ramp-up - and the airlines en masse went from 'happy days' to 'we're all going out of business'. Just think how a shutdown or slowdown would play out now, with your cash burn rate and that oil which keeps going up and up and up...everyday...higher and higher.
The economy was in a downtrun before 9/11 occurred, and management just used that as a "force majuer" clause to make itself look better.
As a DL flyer I'm certainly happy along with all of my Skymiles colleagues that DL acquired NW and is in the driver's seat on this transaction.
We would not be happy if the reverse happened. DL just offers a more superb product.
I agree - after flying DL to Europe and back about 10 times in the last year, I just finished my first (maybe last) NW flight under WP. Yes, I did it for the Great Race 20k bonus miles, but on the DTW-LAX flights the amenities are non-existant. Even in business class, no movies, mediocre food, and crabby FAs (at least on my flights). Yes, the uncertainty over the merger didn't help, but no movies/video on a 5 hour transcon flight?? In business class?? Come on now!
The only thing I would say is that the DTW main WC was very nice, and had showers which were very much appreciated after a nine hour flight in coach from DUS. Then again, the food offerings (or lack thereof) are nothing compared to the DL BE lounge at JFK.
In the end, though - stop whining people! The merger is almost certainly going to happen, and as someone else said, UGs are a privilege - not a right. So appreciate that your miles are not joining those of Aloha in the great mileage graveyard, and see the positive benefits from joining these two airlines - clearly the DL folks appreciate DL, and the NW are all for NW, but isn't one stable operating global airline better than two dead ones in a couple years hence??
but isn't one stable operating global airline better than two dead ones in a couple years hence??
Honestly, unless NW and DL abandon this "don't cut anything" "achieve synergies without cutting hubs" BS, you are looking at two dead carriers in two years time anyway.
Honestly, unless NW and DL abandon this "don't cut anything" "achieve synergies without cutting hubs" BS, you are looking at two dead carriers in two years time anyway.
They will maintain the "don't cut anything" line up to the moment the government gives its approval and the merger is final.
The next day, I guarantee you there will be "compelling new evidence" for cuts and eliminating hubs.
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Brian/\/\ You really should not come to Denver. Cold here. And snowy. And cold. Really, just stay away.
I agree - after flying DL to Europe and back about 10 times in the last year, I just finished my first (maybe last) NW flight under WP. Yes, I did it for the Great Race 20k bonus miles, but on the DTW-LAX flights the amenities are non-existant. Even in business class, no movies, mediocre food, and crabby FAs (at least on my flights). Yes, the uncertainty over the merger didn't help, but no movies/video on a 5 hour transcon flight?? In business class?? Come on now!
The only thing I would say is that the DTW main WC was very nice, and had showers which were very much appreciated after a nine hour flight in coach from DUS. Then again, the food offerings (or lack thereof) are nothing compared to the DL BE lounge at JFK.
In the end, though - stop whining people! The merger is almost certainly going to happen, and as someone else said, UGs are a privilege - not a right. So appreciate that your miles are not joining those of Aloha in the great mileage graveyard, and see the positive benefits from joining these two airlines - clearly the DL folks appreciate DL, and the NW are all for NW, but isn't one stable operating global airline better than two dead ones in a couple years hence??
See, you are missing the philosophy that NW has about domestic first class. The idea is that it isn't a real business class product (although it's much better than the inter-Europe business class product. It is mostly filled with valuable elite customers. now this might not make them alot of money upfront on domestic flights, but it gets them very loyal elites (and also elites that buy high fare coach tickets). Should there be entertainment on transcon flights, yes. Should there be food in coach? Yes. But I would rather have my upgrades, and the elite fliers are the ones that matter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTravels
Frankly, I don't see NW's 744 pilots having any problems with the merger. They're the only ones qualified to fly the whales, so they'll be on the high-demand routes, probably well-paid for it.
Will it mean a hop from DTW or MSP to ATL? Possibly.
My point is for the New DL to move the 744s to ATL or NYC, they'll have to establish a NW crew base there (unless a miracle happens and they can achieve harmonious integration between the DL and NW ALPA chapters ). The way Anderson worded it sounded like a DL grab for NW metal - with DL pilots, hence my point.
Whether the current NW pilot contract allows for them to shift these a/c (and their pilots) to new CONUS gateways remains to be seen.
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Furthermore, this transaction will have no impact on WorldPerks miles or elite status.
I couldn't disagree more. I have been past Platinum member of Delta and am in my 3rd year as Platinum on NWA. And I can say with 100% certainty, if the FF Flyer program resembles anything like Delta's, NWA members will be losing about half their miles.
Delta almost NEVER has seats available at the minimum leve. NWA almost always does. Delta costs much more with fuel surcharges, etc. NWA doesn't have those.
I quit flying Delta, for exactly that reason. I fly NWA exclusively and have over 340K miles banked. I would sure hate to see the resulting program resemble anything like Delta's.
What they announce and the reality of what they do, are 2 entirely different things. Clearly, the value of the miles WILL be affected, if the resultant program resembles Delta's.
). The way Anderson worded it sounded like a DL grab for NW metal - with DL pilots, hence my point.
