We're happy to have you and look forward to all that Northwest has to offer as part of the new Delta.... All of us are going to be happy in the long run.
No, we're not. The only thing that makes this merger less than totally sickmaking is the prospect of a surviving UA digesting CO, creating an even more hideous competitor. This is a case of drown or be shot.
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Owing to heightened security you must comply with any crazy fake "regulation" we make up. Thank you sir.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BearX220
No, we're not. The only thing that makes this merger less than totally sickmaking is the prospect of a surviving UA digesting CO, creating an even more hideous competitor. This is a case of drown or be shot.
Couldn't agree more, if NW ever went away I had always planned to jump to CO but not now that an UA merger is possible. Avoid ORD at all costs.
Outside of upgrade percentages, I fail to see how the product, service or benefits of DL are inferior to NW and would drive any high value customer away. Low yield mileage whores, perhaps. But the combined airline would be better off without them.
No. DL has fewer F seats (as a percentage of total seats) than NW and sells a much, much higher percentage of F seats domestically. Upgrades will become more difficult on some routes. Unfortunately, economic reality dictates that less is given away for free.
WOW. Great language. (note to self: make note of pertinent phraseology)
Actually when customers realize that DL is a money grubbing whore that rips off customers on bogus surcharges on award tickets in some markets and is going to take this systemwide (as I was told in so many words by the revenue desk) that right now jacks up the cost of a TATL award ticket ex-EU by $200, it is very clear that DL has an inferior program.
Also most folks can do math and realize that 100% plat bonus at DL is a lower number than 125% plat bonus at NW.
I'd rather have DL be a money grubbing whore than a dead saint.
If you'd like to provide (in a PM) the name of the person you spoke to, as well as the date and time of the call, I would be happy to confirm your "rumor" of fuel surcharges on ex-US award tickets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
BTW, what is your position at DL?
I am neither an employee of Delta Air Lines, Inc., nor any of its subsidiaries.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBadger
There are several posts on FT recently about the fees associated with booking DL award tickets, particularly overseas. As an example of what I'm used to with UA and NW, I recently booked a MSN-BKK roundtrip award, where the taxes and fees added up to $57.
I recently booked an identical itinerary flying AF business class to Africa using NW, DL, and CO miles for each ticket. CO charged ~$120 in taxes, NW and DL both charged ~$170 for the same AF flights (ORD-JFK-CDG-NSI-CDG-DTW-ORD). 120K miles with each but different taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
2) The fuel surcharges on award tickets ex-EU are NOT rumors.
When is the last time most of us needed one of those?
Given that MOST COMPETING EU PROGRAMS charge the same fees, DL so far is only falling in line. For EU flyers, this is normal.
For ex US tickets, this will be unprecedented. Has anyone authoritative said it will happen ex-US? If so, now is the time to fight that change.
How do you know NW doesn't have similar plans? Let Skymiles start this fee then Worldperks and everyone can follow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
3) There are also DL's junk fees like for using a partner airline that are absolutely bogus.
This recently announced $25 fee will either be retracted or matched by the other legacies like NW, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
4) With all of these extra fees, as an international flyer myself, I would hardly say that DL wins in that category. Quite the reverse is true. A TATL award ticket with less than $100 taxes and fees from NW beats an award ticket between the same city pairs in the same cabin with over $330 taxes and fees from DL, and beats it hands down!
Aren't you mixing something which is rumored to happen (and I think others will follow if not retracted by DL) with the present?
The Ex EU change is matching local programs. Standard in the region.
As a US expat working in Europe, my personal travel starts in Europe. With family members both here and in the states, family travel could start from either. The fees I mentioned are actual quotes from NW and DL for a ticket for my son.
Any airline, whether European or DL that quotes different taxes and fees based on which end the flight originated on is very simply committing a fraud, especially when that different is not a tax or third party fee in the first place but part of the fare arbitrarily placed in the tax and fee column. DL is the only carrier on your side of the pond currently engaging in this fraudulent practice. It should be condemned no matter what airline engages in it. The fact that DL engages in it means DL is an airline I prefer not to deal with.
Your speculation about whether NW has a similar plan does not even rise to the level of a rumor. It is nothing buy idle and baseless speculation.
As to the extension of the fuel surcharge systemwide, I was told by the revenue desk that it would be extended to all flights from Europe (it was then only in certain markets) shortly and eventually would be taken systemwide. From other posts, the part about being extended to all of Europe seems to have happened just as the DL rep told me it would, so the information seems to be solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
I recently booked an identical itinerary flying AF business class to Africa using NW, DL, and CO miles for each ticket. CO charged ~$120 in taxes, NW and DL both charged ~$170 for the same AF flights (ORD-JFK-CDG-NSI-CDG-DTW-ORD). 120K miles with each but different taxes.
When is the last time most of us needed one of those?
Given that MOST COMPETING EU PROGRAMS charge the same fees, DL so far is only falling in line. For EU flyers, this is normal.
For ex US tickets, this will be unprecedented. Has anyone authoritative said it will happen ex-US? If so, now is the time to fight that change.
How do you know NW doesn't have similar plans? Let Skymiles start this fee then Worldperks and everyone can follow.
This recently announced $25 fee will either be retracted or matched by the other legacies like NW, IMO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
As a US expat working in Europe, my personal travel starts in Europe. With family members both here and in the states, family travel could start from either. The fees I mentioned are actual quotes from NW and DL for a ticket for my son.
I disdain the fees and am sad you are subject to them.
I agree they should not exist.
I also find it very important to note for the majority on FT that don't know EU program well: All major EU programs apply the same charges as DL is now doing on Ex EU tickets. Matching a local practice is not identical to starting a new practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolinian
Your speculation about whether NW has a similar plan does not even rise to the level of a rumor. It is nothing buy idle and baseless speculation.
Speculation based on repeated and proven patterns of airline programs playing "follow the leader" when it comes to fees.
As a PE person who mainly gets EQM from international travel and hardly EVER gets an UG on NW. Can someone tell me the advantages of flying DL internationally?
I hate JFK and missed too many flights out of ATL due to distance between termianls.
I love the 330's and connection onto KLM flights out of AMS and get 100% when flying Kenya Airways in Africa on discount fares.
Did I miss anything?
__________________ Are we one BIG happy family YET??
As a PE person who mainly gets EQM from international travel and hardly EVER gets an UG on NW. Can someone tell me the advantages of flying DL internationally?
I hate JFK and missed too many flights out of ATL due to distance between termianls.
I love the 330's and connection onto KLM flights out of AMS and get 100% when flying Kenya Airways in Africa on discount fares.
Did I miss anything?
Well, the 330s and the AMS hub are not going anywhere, so you shouldn't really have anything to worry about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBadger
I was not aware of the upgrade certs...that too is a nice benefit. Are they as easy to use as the NWA SWU's?.
No, the upgrade certs (we call them PMUs) are restricted to the higher Economy classes (Y,B,M) for international travel, but include lower fare classes for domestic travel though. However, the difference with NW is that you get these when you qualify for Platinum, as opposed to hitting the 100K (or is it 125K) thresholds. Personally, I have never had a problem using my DL certs within the first month of getting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBadger
I'm guessing (hoping!) that DL elites don't have to put up with the ICC. Because I have had nothing but issues the few times that I've called them for ticketing issues. .
Yes, all DL elites have access to SMS (Special Member Services) which is all US-based. I agree that the ICC stinks and DL realizes that as well - they are migrating more and more of the front-office work back to the US and using India for back-office/admin work instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBadger
There are several posts on FT recently about the fees associated with booking DL award tickets, particularly overseas. As an example of what I'm used to with UA and NW, I recently booked a MSN-BKK roundtrip award, where the taxes and fees added up to $57..
As mentioned by others, DL does not have these higher fees/taxes associated with US-originating itineraries (like your quoted MSN-BKK trip).
Last edited by slippahs; Apr 21, 08 at 12:00 am.
Reason: merging two consecutive posts
I just heard a report on Minnesota Public Radio and I thought the commentator said that only the pilots and one other group at Delta were unionized. Since Delta is "buying" NWA, what happens to the contract with FA's, mechanics, etc.?
I understand the pilots are upset, but I don't hear anything from the other groups.
They accept or reject by a vote (if union agreement is required), or by their work - which could result in a total strike or work slowdown.
I'd be very very surprised if NW allows their unions to veto a merger. Apparently you don't know for a fact that they can, otherwise you would not have said "if union agreement is required."
So how does this work? Do NW employees engage in a slowdown now to "protest" the merger, or wait until after the companies merge and then slowdown? Oops, if they wait til later, the companies have already merged...
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The NW employees are NOT on board. The DL pilots are somewhat on board, probably because they were given some promise they would come out the victors.
So are the DL employees on board or not board?
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Let's be realistic here - employees, especially unionized, don't always make decisions or take actions which are in the best interests of their job or company.
I'll give you that. But watching a half dozen carriers fold has got to be a sobering experience. Makes you wonder if the grass is really greener somewhere else.
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Come on now, there are plenty of airline jobs out there - standards have dropped to the lowest levels in as long as I can remember and carriers are desperate to hire. A large number of the crew who have been around a decade or more have the resources to say 'screw it', and find something else.
Do you have statistics to back that up? What standards have dropped to the lowest levels since you can remember? Care to quote specific examples? You do realize that any employee who quits his/her job starts over as junior man on someone else's seniority list, right? That means bottom of the barrel seniority (oh crap, that's what's at issues in the merger) and bottom of the barrel pay. The hiring minimums that have dropped that I am aware of apply to regional airlines; those jobs pay $25k for the first year, and it goes up incrementally from there. Are you implying that NW mainline pilots are willing to jump ship to have worse conditions than they have now? Those with jobs at a post-NW merger will have a better life than those that leave the company, with very, very few exceptions.
Oh, one more thing... if the merger does go through, and DL/NW keep only the wholly owned subsidiary carriers, that means Skywest pilots by and large and ASA pilots will be out on the street looking for new jobs. Can't forget Pinnacle. Ooops... the competition for new jobs is already getting tough.
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Pilots aren't the only labor group primed to fight back - what if the FAs strike? How about the agents? Mechanics?
Uh... they can't strike without a whole host of pre-existing conditions. Job actions? Sure. "Work to rule" is one of the most popular. Working to rule, however, is not a strike. Don't confuse the two.
What if the FA's, agents, and mechanics strike? (Again, several things have to be in place before a strike can happen.) Well, we saw what happened to AMFA a few years ago, didn't we? The employees, sorry to say, have little to no leverage here. Collapsing the carrier and finding new jobs does nothing for anybody. Again, whatever jobs they have now are better than finding new ones.
Bottom line here is that if I were management, I'd be *very* comfortable playing a game of chicken with my labor.
I will...but that aside, use your common sense and think for just one second. Which airline out there planned for $100/$110 oil and went ahead and executed on that particular model?
If DL blundered on $65 oil, then guess what? Everyone blundered.
And FYI, even if DL did leave BK with $65 oil assumption, it managed to still make money off of $70 and even $80 oil last year. And just for reference, oil was trading at about $55/barrel in Q1 when DL and NW were preparing to exit bankruptcy. Should they have planned for $110 then? Given that oil is at $113 today, should we now plan for $226 a year from now?
That's irrelevant. We're not asking which airline planned for $110/barrel. The question is, did any other airlines OTHER than Delta plan on oil staying $65/barrel or lower?
Even if nobody planned on $110, if most airlines planned in case of $85 or $90, and Delta just assumed $65, it still speaks to a complete failure of management at Delta.
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FWIW, here's a link to a transcript of today's investor/analyst conference call. There's some discussion of fleet shifts, etc. that point to the future under the merger...
