You haven't answered the question...so I'll ask it again...What exactly is attractive about the current DL product? (I really don't know, and am looking for something...anything...to make the news less bad).
The Worldclubs vs. Crown Room Clubs point you claim is certainly subjective.
Delta benefits:
True lie-flat seats to come in Business
Widebody aircraft in domestic service
Domestic IFE
Historically, better award availability
Hmm...before you make a bigger fool out of yourself, please realize that:
- Not even the great NW planned for $100 or $110 oil when they exited bankruptcy. Perhaps we should now base a business plan on $150 oil, and start massive cutbacks and laying off people, hell, why don't we base oil on $200 and then shut down the airline completely, starting now?
- You should also do some fact checking regarding fuel hedging. DL didn't hedge fuel? DL hedged 27% of Q1 2008, 42% of Q2 2008 (so far), 26% of Q3 2008 (so far), and 11% of Q4 2008.
If you have a problem with Randy's statement in Inside Flyer on DL's blunder on oil prices driving their merger mania, maybe you should take it up with him.
Programs: BMI Gold, AA PLT 2MM, UA 1K, DL Silver, Hilton Gold
Posts: 3,682
As a recent NW Gold, current DL Gold, soon to be DL Plat, I really don't understand all the fuss.
Yes, the NW program is better in some ways. But the DL program is better in others!
Award availability:
NW wins for domestic awards on NW (low value awards) if you are Plat. For everyone else, NW has no edge. DL wins on premium cabin international awards (high value awards) because they are partnered with the ultimate award (SQ) when NW isn't. NW and DL access to Skyteam awards is the same and premium Skyteam awards is the best way for most of us to get good value from our miles. DL wins international because of SQ (high value), NW wins domestic (low value) because of Plat NW availability on NW award tickets.
How many DL miles have I used recently? More than a million on high value international AF awards. Always at the lowest redemption level. Hardly a worthless program, IMO.
Of course, I also know how to use a combination of ExpertFlyer.com and KVS to locate the available seats before I call. Then call and grab them...including a family of 4 traveling together out in June back in August booked 2 weeks ago.
Upgrades: NW wins for domestic upgrade percentage. Yes, this will hurt. If your schedule permits, fly off peak and you will get upgraded on DL. I am at about 70% so far, as a DL gold. DL wins international.
You can by M fares, way less than B in many markets, and upgrade.
And very important, every Plat gets international upgrade certs on DL. These are worth 150K miles a year (6 x 25K).
Say a NW Plat flies 100K a year. You are complaining about loosing 25K/year in bonus miles (125% versus 100%).
What is better? 25K more in bonus miles or free international upgrades worth 150K miles?
I also want to point out that the reason NW upgrade more people domestically is primarily because their planes have more F seats to Y seats. So if you continue to fly the same routes on the same planes, your upgrade percentage will probably only decrease in a very small way.
Any 100K/year domestic flyer who doesn't care about international and just wants extraordinary upgrade clearance retes should seriously consider AA. AA EXP has the best upgrade clearance of them all.
Call center: In my experience, DL has been more competent than NW (when booking the international partner awards I use - the only high value way to use miles).
In irregular opps, I rate NW and DL about the same.
The only major devaluation for NW flyers will be domestic upgrade percentages going down. This is countered by a better international upgrade program, giving Plats 150K miles worth of free upgrades/year.
I have seen many comments equating twice as many elites with practically no upgrades for anyone. Is everyone doing the math correctly?
20,000 elites on 2,000 planes = 10 elites per plane
40,000 elites on 4,000 planes = 10 elites per plane (NOT 20!)
Domestic upgrade percentages overall will only decrease by the % increase in total elites/planes flying. This total number of elites is likely to bulge a little but nothing like what some here are implying.
Last edited by wanaflyforless; Apr 15, 08 at 2:24 pm.
The Worldclubs vs. Crown Room Clubs point you claim is certainly subjective.
Delta benefits:
True lie-flat seats to come in Business
Widebody aircraft in domestic service
Domestic IFE
Historically, better award availability
Is it? From my experiences, at the Worldclubs, I get to pour my own drinks, I don't have to tip anyone, and I get free wireless internet access and a better selection of snacks (like bagels, yogurt and fruit in the morning). Admittedly I've been to more WC than I have CR, so I may have missed something there.
As far as the other benefits go, thanks for pointing those out. I agree that some may enjoy those benefits. Personally, however, I don't fly in business class (student), and don't use the IFE domestically (again, student ). I would say that the benefit from widebody availability domestically is as much or more subjective than the WC/CR argument. The award availability I can't comment on, other than I've never really had problems finding the flights that I want on NW. However, when that availability will cost me an extra $300 per person per ("Free") trip, I'll have to say no thanks.
Outside of upgrade percentages, I fail to see how the product, service or benefits of DL are inferior to NW and would drive any high value customer away. Low yield mileage whores, perhaps. But the combined airline would be better off without them.
No. DL has fewer F seats (as a percentage of total seats) than NW and sells a much, much higher percentage of F seats domestically. Upgrades will become more difficult on some routes. Unfortunately, economic reality dictates that less is given away for free.
Actually when customers realize that DL is a money grubbing whore that rips off customers on bogus surcharges on award tickets in some markets and is going to take this systemwide (as I was told in so many words by the revenue desk) that right now jacks up the cost of a TATL award ticket ex-EU by $200, it is very clear that DL has an inferior program.
Also most folks can do math and realize that 100% plat bonus at DL is a lower number than 125% plat bonus at NW.
Programs: CO Platinum, SPG Platinum, HH Gold - whatever that's worth now :(
Posts: 12,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHAST
And by what mechanism do they formally approve or reject the merger? I've worked for two aviation companies that have been sold or mergerd, and guess what, that happened without my permission or even commentary. The airlines can merger with or without employee "approval."
They accept or reject by a vote (if union agreement is required), or by their work - which could result in a total strike or work slowdown.
Quote:
Oh, look at US/HP. They merged. Yes, the aftermath is ugly, but they still merged. I'm very well aware that NW/DL could look like that post-merger, but they would have still merged.
How is this relevant?
Quote:
Because management tried to do something smart and get employees on board before the merger. Labor integration is serious business. But there was never any doubt that the airlines could pursue a merger without labor blessing.
Ok, answer me this: Where do the pilots go en masse when the airline is shut down? If you think there are "plenty of jobs" to around, think again. Don't forget we've seen at least six carriers shut down over the years (including FlyI a couple of years ago.) Not only did that represent a contraction in the number of jobs available, but it also flooded the market with labor.
Any pilot with half of a brain knows that he either deals with this situation, or finds a new career. (Hint: Most pilots actually like to fly.)
The NW employees are NOT on board. The DL pilots are somewhat on board, probably because they were given some promise they would come out the victors.
Let's be realistic here - employees, especially unionized, don't always make decisions or take actions which are in the best interests of their job or company. Come on now, there are plenty of airline jobs out there - standards have dropped to the lowest levels in as long as I can remember and carriers are desperate to hire. A large number of the crew who have been around a decade or more have the resources to say 'screw it', and find something else.
New airlines are starting up, Virgin America is expanding, etc.
Quote:
That scenario is unlikely to happen, so don't preach it like it's gospel. But consider this: Absent the 757, there isn't any fleet overlap. The carrier could very well put fences around the equipment, keeping NW pilots flying NW planes, and DL pilots flying DL planes.
Pilots aren't the only labor group primed to fight back - what if the FAs strike? How about the agents? Mechanics?
Quote:
Do you not think the requisite board of directors have not weighed in on the issue already? Do you think the two companies would have pursued a merger without board blessing? Who do you think authorized the merger announcement in the first place? Do you think Steenland and Anderson made the decision one day over a round of golf?
What does the board of directors have to do with anything? It's the shareholders who cast the vote, not the board. If they feel the deal undervalues their investment, they can vote against it and refuse to tender their shares.
__________________ Rich and 50 is the same as middle-class and 30
If you have a problem with Randy's statement in Inside Flyer on DL's blunder on oil prices driving their merger mania, maybe you should take it up with him.
I will...but that aside, use your common sense and think for just one second. Which airline out there planned for $100/$110 oil and went ahead and executed on that particular model?
If DL blundered on $65 oil, then guess what? Everyone blundered.
And FYI, even if DL did leave BK with $65 oil assumption, it managed to still make money off of $70 and even $80 oil last year. And just for reference, oil was trading at about $55/barrel in Q1 when DL and NW were preparing to exit bankruptcy. Should they have planned for $110 then? Given that oil is at $113 today, should we now plan for $226 a year from now?
Thanks for this post - for my flying it looks to be a good deal. I care about Intl. premium cabin upgrades and awards -- that is the most important to me - so this could be a good thing. Also more easily reach Itnl destinations, and lastly that SQ thing is not bad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
As a recent NW Gold, current DL Gold, soon to be DL Plat, I really don't understand all the fuss.
Yes, the NW program is better in some ways. But the DL program is better in others!
Award availability: NW wins for domestic awards on NW (low value awards) if you are Plat. For everyone else, NW has no edge. DL wins on premium cabin international awards (high value awards) because they are partnered with the ultimate award (SQ) when NW isn't. DL wins international because of SQ (high value), NW wins domestic (low value) because of Plat NW availability on NW award tickets.
How many DL miles have I used recently? More than a million on high value international AF awards. Always at the lowest redemption level. Hardly a worthless program, IMO.
Of course, I also know how to use a combination of ExpertFlyer.com and KVS to locate the available seats before I call. Then call and grab them...including a family of 4 traveling together out in June back in August booked 2 weeks ago.
Upgrades: NW wins for domestic upgrade percentage. Yes, this will hurt. If your schedule permits, fly off peak and you will get upgraded on DL. I am at about 70% so far, as a DL gold. DL wins international.
You can by M fares, way less than B in many markets, and upgrade.
And very important, every Plat gets international upgrade certs on DL. These are worth 150K miles a year (6 x 25K).
Say a NW Plat flies 100K a year. You are complaining about loosing 25K/year in bonus miles (125% versus 100%).
What is better? 25K more in bonus miles or free international upgrades worth 150K miles?
Call center: In my experience, DL has been more competent than NW (when booking the international partner awards I use - the only high value way to use miles).
In irregular opps, I rate NW and DL about the same.
Fuel surcharged on award tickets:
At this point, DL awards have similar fees to NW ones (for US based members). Rumor is DL will add surcharges. Rather than assuming the rumor will come to be, lets encourage Randy to fight this change.
The only major devaluation for NW flying will be domestic upgrade percentages going down. This is countered by a better international upgrade program, giving Plats 150K miles worth of free upgrades/year.
I have seen many comments equating twice as many elites with practically no upgrades for anyone. Is everyone doing the math correctly?
20,000 elites on 2,000 planes = 10 elites per plane
40,000 elites on 4,000 planes = 10 elites per plane (NOT 20!)
Domestic upgrade percentages overall will only decrease by the % increase in total elites/planes flying. This total number of elites is likely to bulge a little but nothing like what some here are implying.
Award availability: NW wins for domestic awards on NW (low value awards). NW and DL are equal on premium cabin international awards (high value awards). DL is even partnered with the ultimate award (SQ) when NW isn't. DL wins international (high value), NW wins domestic (low value) award tickets.
This is a good analysis, and if true is a benefit for the DL program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
You can by M fares, way less than B in many markets, and upgrade.
And very important to me, every Plat gets international upgrade certs on DL. These are worth 150K miles a year (6 x 25K).
I was not aware of the upgrade certs...that too is a nice benefit. Are they as easy to use as the NWA SWU's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
Say a NW Plat flies 100K a year. You are complaining about loosing 25K/year in bonus miles (125% versus 100%). What is better? 25K more in bonus miles or free international upgrades worth 150K miles?
Hey, 25k is a free domestic ticket, and it's getting harder and harder to find those for cheap. The upgrade certs would be very nice, if they're easily used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
Call center: In my experience, DL has been more competent than NW.
I'm guessing (hoping!) that DL elites don't have to put up with the ICC. Because I have had nothing but issues the few times that I've called them for ticketing issues. I still don't believe that they compare with the NW elite services line, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
Fuel surcharged on award tickets:
At this point, US DL awards have similar fees to NW ones. Rumor is DL will add surcharges. Rather than assuming the rumor will come to be, lets encourage Randy to fight this change.
There are several posts on FT recently about the fees associated with booking DL award tickets, particularly overseas. As an example of what I'm used to with UA and NW, I recently booked a MSN-BKK roundtrip award, where the taxes and fees added up to $57.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
I have seen many comments about there now being twice as many elites so far less upgrades for everyone. I think some people are thinking about this wrong.
20,000 elites on 2,000 planes = 10 elites per plane
40,000 elites on 4,000 planes = 10 elites per plane (NOT 20!)
Domestic upgrade percentages overall will only decrease by the % increase in total elites/planes flying. This total number of elites is likely to bulge a little but nothing like what some here are implying.
Although I agree that people are blowing this slightly out of proportion, the NWA elites are getting the (very) short end of the stick here. Not only is DL currently offering double EQM's, thereby swelling the elite ranks at every level and not allowing NW elites to gain similar status with the same amount of flying, but there are also just a lot more DL elites. So, although the numbers may work out, in the end, the DL elites will likely be upgraded more (opening up more planes for their large elite base), while the NW elites will likely be upgraded less (significantly more competition for the seats available).
Right now, it's more like (numbers are totally fictional, only meant to show proportions):
30,000 elites on 3000 planes for DL (ie, 10 elites/plane) , and 15,000 elites on 3000 planes on NW (5 elites/plane)
whereas in the future it will be 45,000 elites on 6000 planes (7.5 elites/plane).
Therefore, the DL elites will get more upgrades than they are used to, while the NW elites will get less.
1) as far as upgrades go, a lot of the problem is that NW planes have more seats up front than DL planes. When NW elites are thrown in the same pot as DL elite-lites, there will be a lot more competition for those seats, and we will get fewer upgrades.
2) The fuel surcharges on award tickets ex-EU are NOT rumors. I have personally been quoted those, and when some on the DL board disputed that, I called DL and got through to the revenue desk while online, and they told me that this charge would be doing systemwide. The fact that it is already in Europe should concern all international travellers.
3) There are also DL's junk fees like for using a partner airline that are absoutely bogus.
4) With all of these extra fees, as an international flyer myself, I would hardly say that DL wins in that category. Quite the reverse is true. A TATL award ticket with less than $100 taxes and fees from NW beats an award ticket between the same city pairs in the same cabin with over $330 taxes and fees from DL, and beats it hands down!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanaflyforless
As a recent NW Gold, current DL Gold, soon to be DL Plat, I really don't understand all the fuss.
Yes, the NW program is better in some ways. But the DL program is better in others!
Award availability:
NW wins for domestic awards on NW (low value awards) if you are Plat. For everyone else, NW has no edge. DL wins on premium cabin international awards (high value awards) because they are partnered with the ultimate award (SQ) when NW isn't. DL wins international because of SQ (high value), NW wins domestic (low value) because of Plat NW availability on NW award tickets.
How many DL miles have I used recently? More than a million on high value international AF awards. Always at the lowest redemption level. Hardly a worthless program, IMO.
Of course, I also know how to use a combination of ExpertFlyer.com and KVS to locate the available seats before I call. Then call and grab them...including a family of 4 traveling together out in June back in August booked 2 weeks ago.
Upgrades: NW wins for domestic upgrade percentage. Yes, this will hurt. If your schedule permits, fly off peak and you will get upgraded on DL. I am at about 70% so far, as a DL gold. DL wins international.
You can by M fares, way less than B in many markets, and upgrade.
And very important, every Plat gets international upgrade certs on DL. These are worth 150K miles a year (6 x 25K).
Say a NW Plat flies 100K a year. You are complaining about loosing 25K/year in bonus miles (125% versus 100%).
What is better? 25K more in bonus miles or free international upgrades worth 150K miles?
Call center: In my experience, DL has been more competent than NW (when booking the international partner awards I use - the only high value way to use miles).
In irregular opps, I rate NW and DL about the same.
The only major devaluation for NW flying will be domestic upgrade percentages going down. This is countered by a better international upgrade program, giving Plats 150K miles worth of free upgrades/year.
I have seen many comments equating twice as many elites with practically no upgrades for anyone. Is everyone doing the math correctly?
20,000 elites on 2,000 planes = 10 elites per plane
40,000 elites on 4,000 planes = 10 elites per plane (NOT 20!)
Domestic upgrade percentages overall will only decrease by the % increase in total elites/planes flying. This total number of elites is likely to bulge a little but nothing like what some here are implying.
You have to remember that AF is kicking in a billion bucks on this merger from hell, and will have a seat on the new board, and think about what they did when they took over KLM. They junked BOTH ff programs, Frequence Plus and Flying DUtchman, and created a new one, Flying Blue, that was but a pale ghost of the programs it replaced. Flying Blue or something like it may be where both programs are headed, and that will be a bigger disaster than just being relegated to SkyMiles.
Could you explain the ways in which Flying Blue is inferior to Frequence Plus?
__________________
Signature temporarily removed- apparently somebody hasn't seen me trying to speak Chinese.
Does anyone think they might come up with new tiers for the elite program for 2009 if it completes by 2009?
100k
50k
25k
Similiar to united? I still plan to hit 100k or even 125k to hedge against them changing the tier level from 75k?
Like everyone else stated, i have been through 3 aquisitiions in the past 4 yrs, you run your company like nothing has happened, you make your own buisness decisions. Once the govt approves than you can start to communicate what the new company will look like. I would guess changes on both fronts. Worldperks and skymiles will change. Maybe some changes will benefit us maybe some will benefit delta flyers. It's anyone guess and all we can do is guess.
I personally do not plan on changing my habits of flying. after i hit 75k on NWA next week could i start to move everything into a skymiles account? I am just not sure how much that buys me.
I plan on putting everything in Worldperks, if i get F.uked i guess i will have make maybe some different choices in 2009 for what airline i fly.
Again i am also at a NWA hub in MSP, so my choices are a little bit more limited.
Best in Class 
). I would say that the benefit from widebody availability domestically is as much or more subjective than the WC/CR argument. The award availability I can't comment on, other than I've never really had problems finding the flights that I want on NW. However, when that availability will cost me an extra $300 per person per ("Free") trip, I'll have to say no thanks.
Check out this nifty graphic on Bloomberg.com
