Clincher

I would not promote the idea of selling miles. ------------ consequences are dire indeed.

Can't deny the airlines have set up rules to dictate how the miles are used. If you mis-use them they can disappear. Even if you don't mis-use them, program rules say FF programs can be discontinued at anytime by the airline. Maybe if they are nice they'll give you six months to use them up. Wouldn't that be a nightmare finding reward seats!

As I read this thread about mile ownership and how to use those banked miles I thought yeah, just like all that money in the bank, your investments, your 401K and all of a sudden overnight it's gone. Was it really your money just because you had a piece of paper or an account that said a dollar amount?

Best rule is to use the miles (and your money) anyway you want while you got it because tomorrow it can be all gone.

cepheid

Except you don't, as has been explained to you in this thread and in the previous one where you espoused the same view.

Again untrue, since it is explicitly the airline's business (both literally and figuratively), and since they "license" the miles to you, they can explicitly dictate how you may use them.

You do realize that the airlines aren't doing very well in this economy, either, right?

Technically, you are... all income must be declared on your return, whether it's from a regular job, a hobby, or whatever. Remember, that's how they got Al Capone...

(And courts have ruled that miles from business travel are a taxable perk if the business deducts the travel expenses... the IRS simply doesn't tax the miles because they haven't figured out a cost-efficient way to do so.)

lin821

That's exactly my point!

flyerd, may I point out this big difference between you and other FTers who do plan to use their miles?

As I read all the threads you started about selling miles on FT, apparently you don't need your miles. Your company/job covers you pretty well and flies you wherever you are going. I am happy for you. You are also a self-claimed pro miles seller and haven't got caught. Even if you get caught, the dire consequences of frozen accounts and forfeited award tickets mean nothing to you since you won't be affected by the lost miles that you are not using anyway. For the rest of us who do plan to use our miles, we rather not to face the consequences.

Please don't take my following comments too personal. You've made your own personal beliefs and action very clear. I see no points to restate what all the FFP terms and conditions to you. You are your own master and decide your own action. If I were you, I would steer away from promoting/persuading others to engage in activities that's breaching any FFP terms and policy. The consequences you are comfortable with personally may not have the same effect on other FTers. Other people may have everything (or should I say every mile ) to lose.

If you want to continue the "intellectual discussion" about selling miles, I believe you'd started more than one thread, such as this one. With respect to OP, I think the original question had been answered. If you want to pursue further the topics of your interests, I think you should do it in your threads.

friedablass

Here we go again. I realized over the past 15 months or so since I joined FT, that every so often a thread about selling miles will be started. Everyone will chime in with their opinions and then the thread will die together with everyone's opinions - until the next time this topic crops up.

I always enjoy reading these threads and seeing everyones take on this highly controversial topic. My opinion = no use in trying to convince someone not to sell miles due to consequences. They will not listen - the only way they'll stop is if they suffer the consequences and that only needs to happen once since after that they won't be able to do anything with their miles anymore.

rbAA

Unless you are deducting the cost of the ticket, etc. which generated the miles, it is merely a "rebate" and would not be taxable income.

I remember in the 80's a number of court cases that held that property should be freely alienable and that contracts were to provide for mutuality of treatment. Restrictive covenents were rarely enforced unless narrowly drawn and a compelling public interst or policy justified the restriction. Airlines sell billions of miles, hence they don't want to have to compete with you selling them. Though you never know how a court would view this, you know that it would be a major hassle getting to that point.

cepheid

Yes, that's why I specified that the perk is taxable if the business deducts its travel expenses. For travel where the cost is not deducted, e.g. for leisure travel where the money used to pay for the ticket has already been taxed, your interpretation is correct. That's why I was quite specific in what I said.

Which is why airlines maintain that miles are not property, especially not the property of the traveler.

fly2w

I did not realize that this has been discussed already. I should have done a search first . Anyway I had no intention to sell my miles.When I have seen this website advertised, I was wondering if in fact these websites have a special arrangement with the airlines. I guess many flyers do not realize that their violating the terms and can suffer the consequences.

lin821

As far as I know, Points.com is the only site that has such partnerships with various FFPs. However, don't expect anything close to 1:1 "swap." Just do a search on Points and their GPX, you'll find quite a few discussion threads about the ripoff exchanges/redemptions.

flyerd

When I started selling miles on flyhub.com my first question to them was how can you ensure I would never get in trouble, and I liked what they had to say about protecting buyers and sellers' identity by acting as the middleman.

That said, this doesn't mean that I'm not taking a chance when I sell on Craigslist for example, but hopefully airlines have better things to do than come after me. And if they ever did, I'll simply countersue.

You do have a point though chasethemiles, some have gotten caught in the past, not sure where and how they were selling their miles, but I'm gonna guess it was not through flyhub.com or sellyourmiles, I researched both companies extensively before selling on their sites.

the_happiness_store

Foolish.

oklAAhoma

Saying that doesn't make it true.

Brilliant strategy.

lin821

Sigh. Your middleman must be very thrilled that you have such confidence in them and speak so highly of them.

IIRC, you've never redeemed your miles for any award ticket, right?

I have. As far as I know, the airlines can tell which accounts the miles are coming from from the ticket record/reservation/confirmation..etc. They don't necessarily have to go through the "middleman" to obtain the identity of the FFP account holders.

I've said it before and I am going to say it again. There's no point to "convert" you to what us regular FTers believe and vice versa. Just keep the consequences in mind when you proceed.

ingy

I found a Google ad today where Ebay.com was advertising Northwest vouchers for sale on Ebay.

I made a screen shot if anyone needs it in the future.

Ebay sure seems to cooperate with the airlines about preventing this activity, but yet advertises it themselves.

Hypocritical? Maybe just a little

Rudi

selling of miles (or award tickets) is legal, but in most cases against airline rules (small print).

For the miles&more program (Frequent Flier program of Lufthansa, swiss, austrian, polish) there is a (indirect) way to do it not only legally but also without hurting any airline (or other small print) rules.

This has been done openly many thousand times (and is still done now) and several threads about this are found in the swiss airline forum (a subforum of the miles&more forum).

One of the latest FlyerTalk discussions and tips how to do it can be found here.

I myself have traded several hundred of millions of Coop Superpoints and converted them (regular convertion rate is 2 Superpoints = 1 mile, but from time to time there are promotions like 3 Superpoints = 2 miles, or in the early days, some 4 years ago the promotion conversion was even 1:1 - and from that early promotion days I myself still have over 3 Million miles&more miles in my own account) into miles of different miles&more accounts (including m&m accounts of at least 30 different FlyerTalkers).

Coop Superpoints can be easily and legally (and supported by the Coop Superpoint homepage) traded online (no costs involved), and the conversion into any miles&more account can also be done online on the Coop homepage. The trading of these points and the conversion into any miles&more account are not only within any Coop small print rules, but are even supportedd by Coop online. EVeryone can earn Coop Superoints when shopping in swiss Coop (and partner) outlets. And Superpoints in huge quantities are traded daily on swiss auction platforms (leader of such an auction platform in Switzerland is Ricardo, only second and by far not as competitiv as Ricardo is ebay here)

All of the above has been openly shown and discussed in threads and posts on FlyerTalk (always in the swiss airline forum, now the swiss airline forum is a subforum of miles&more).

mia

Continues here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...hey-legit.html