Mountain Trader

Great work, Moondog!

It stands to reason that being charged an amount you didn't approve would be an actionable basis for denial.

BTW, FIA was very professional and effective in helping beat back an issue for me (unrelated to DCC). I was glad to have them on my side.

moondog

Thanks. Between creating my letter/spreadsheet and talking to them, I wasted an enormous amount of time in the pursuit of a mere twenty bucks, but I think I'll put my spreadsheet on offer in the DCC thread. If more people make a stink about DCC, the banks might get better at dealing with it.

biggestbopper

Moondog obviously struck one of many needed blows against DCC. Thanks MD.

I, before DCC was even dreamed off, had some involvement in a billing eror dispute involving undisclosed forex fees by a major US Bank.

The bank just ignored the card user's billing error letter and written list of around a hundred incorrect forex conversions on card user's statements and never responded.

Card user sued for violations of Truth in Lending Act. Bank settled case for $1000 for each violation of TiLA. Each unaddressed, disputed amount is a separate violation.

Now, no one on FT is hot to get into a lawsut--but, at least there are options to just rolling over for the so called Dynamic Currency Conversion.

Mountain Trader

I know your story was pre DCC, but I actually sympathize with the CC banks on this, as the US laws (as I understand them) force them to referee DCC disputes, even though they don't initiate them and they make nothing from them. Part of the business, I guess.

boboqui

What a hassle!!!

In Brazil, I withdraw currency from a TD Bank checking account on HSBC ATMs and pay absolutely no fees!

ajnaro

Citibank is, as far as I know, the only bank in Brazil that charges a fee for foreign ATM withdrawals. However, the vast majority of banks, including even foreign banks, simply do not allow foreign ATM withdrawals at all. HSBC and Banco do Brasil are among the few banks that allow foreign ATM withdrawals. At Banco do Brasil it is necessary to search out specially marked ATMs that accept foreign cards.

otptravels

From the Brazilian bank side of fees, I pretty much used only HSBC banks if I could. Like others stated, Citibank charges a fee and I had more trouble that it was worth trying to deal with Banco do Brasil machines.

From the US bank side of fees, I figured using and HSBC bank card on an HSBC bank would eliminate any fees, and it looked that way on my bank statement. However, I tested it once by using 2 different cards and pulling out the same amount on the same day from the same machine. It turns out HSBC US just hid the fee amount in the transaction amount. So, as an example, it showed one debit of $150. My other card (Charter One) showed one debit of $142, then a foreign exchange fee of $8.

Something to keep an eye on. . .

ma91pmh

Can someone tell me what recourse (if any) there is for a foreign currency fee charged to my Citibank card for a charge that was billed in USD? I really don't see how anyone can justify a foreign currency fee in this situation given last time I checked USD was not "foreign". But the travel agency was British so bang 3% fee which is not trivial on a $5k payment.

Sagy

Unfortunately, some/many banks add the fee on "foreign transactions" not just "foreign currency transactions". So per your contract with them, it is likely that they have the right to charge you the 3% fee. Having said that, you should probably call them and if you are a good long term customer and get a sympathetic supervisor you might get a one-time exception and they'll wave the fee.

themicah

Citibank charges a 3% "foreign transaction fee" on all charges processed outside the US regardless of currency. I believe BoA does this too. It sucks.

rtwvagabond

I'm looking at prospective banks and their debit cards for withdrawing money at ATMs.

Is it better to get a card with 0% foreign exchange fees, but does not reimburse/very limited reimbursement for any fees for actual withdrawal of money or a 1%-2% card that has unlimited reimbursement for withdrawing money?

honu

What if you're in FSM, Guam, the Northern Marianas, the Marshall Islands or Palau, where the currency is the US$, but technically you're not in the US? Does citi charge their 3% penalty? What about Chase?

Happy

Isn't Guam a US territory? I think at least in the case of Guam, you can fight with Citi should it charge the foreign transaction fee.

Chase charges the same fee, too if my recollection is correct.

Note that now the card issuers said "foreign transaction" and define it as the transaction being processed outside US.

sbedelman

Yes.

Of course it possible there are debit cards out there that charge a Forex fee, although the one I use (Schwab) doesn't. So assuming no disclosed fees from the card issuer the only fee is the the so called interchange fee that Visa/MC assess which is typically 1% over the wholesale rate. They used to guarantee it was the wholesale rate but both Visa/MC have eliminated that and only say it is the rate they use. That said in my experience it is or is very close to the published interbank rate.

I just did this one a trip to Thailand right in the airport. The currency exchange booth was a bank and they were displaying the Visa/MC logo so I asked to do a cash advance. Two minutes later I had US $1000 equivalent in Baht.

The only gotcha is that certain banks refuse to do counter cash advances and insist you use the ATM which is a direct violation of the rules. Generally this is in heavily touristed cities where they don't want to lose the fees. I insist on speaking to the manager when that happens and it usually fixes matters, but once in a while I have to go down the street to another bank. When that happens I file a complaint with Visa International or MC when I return.

sbedelman

For them to assess this they would have had to disclose as part of the cruise contract that the transaction was going to be made in a currency other than US $.

If the contract was between you and another US entity and the price was in $$ then it cannot be subject to a forex fee. There is no wiggle room on this.

However the reverse is not true. A charge in US $ made in a foreign country is subject to a fee. In fact you can actually get charged twice in this case. The reason is that certain banks convert the amount being charged to $ as part of the transaction (charging you a hefty fee or poor rate) then process the charge through in $$. Visa/MC and your bank tack on the forex fee because the charge was outside the US. So you not only get a terrible exchange rate, you pay a fee on top of that. The one time I had this happen recently was Australia and I simply asked them to cancel the charge and paid cash.

I don't think the poor desk clerk had a clue her establishment or their bank was taking advantage of customers so it wouldn't have been right to take it out on her but management got an earful by email when I got home including a succinct description of what happened on Tripadvisor.

Edited...Ah sorry, I see everyone already knows about DCC. Apologies.