Quebec Bill 791: Regulations for rewards programs
May 2, 2017, 7:12 pm
#16
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: GVA (Greater Vancouver Area)
Programs: DREAD Gold; UA 1.035MM; Bonvoy Au-197; PCC Elite+; CCC Elite+; MSC C-12; CWC Au-197; WoH Dis
Posts: 52,139
May 3, 2017, 2:48 am
#17
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Excluding Quebec (and its people resident there) from participating in some kinds of deals is almost certainly not illegal.
Quebecois is a reference to the people of Quebec, regardless of their political affiliation.
May 3, 2017, 10:10 pm
#18
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the air
Programs: Occasional RTW club
Posts: 6,924
I'm not worried about Aeroplan - like I said, they have too much at stake to just ditch Quebec. I'm worried about all the non-Canadian based programs - Marriott/SPG, IHG, British Airways, Accor, just to name those I personally have points with. Do you honestly think any of them will care one whit about one province of a small market (for them)? They'll just follow what apparently Alaska Airlines has already done, which is pull out of Quebec. This could be totally disastrous for us Quebec-based points accumulators.
To put this in perspective: what would you think of a government that outlawed stores from putting up the prices of their merchandise? It's exactly the same principle.
I'm not sure any program actively hides collection or redemption of awards. Now, I will put the caveat of AE's ridiculous website making it highly difficult to redeem awards, but the well-informed have workarounds. However, this particular regulation does nothing to counter that.
I'll give you points expiry; I personally like the activity-to-keep-points-from-expiring rules, but certainly a regulation that would outlaw points expiry I think would be implementable, without risking companies' pulling out.
To put this in perspective: what would you think of a government that outlawed stores from putting up the prices of their merchandise? It's exactly the same principle.
I'm not sure any program actively hides collection or redemption of awards. Now, I will put the caveat of AE's ridiculous website making it highly difficult to redeem awards, but the well-informed have workarounds. However, this particular regulation does nothing to counter that.
I'll give you points expiry; I personally like the activity-to-keep-points-from-expiring rules, but certainly a regulation that would outlaw points expiry I think would be implementable, without risking companies' pulling out.
May 4, 2017, 12:31 am
#19
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
It seems to me that many of these efforts are a little naïve..... in that many people seem to think certain things they don't like (points expiry for instance) can be wished away legislatively..... while assuming that nothing else will change.
You can't legislate costs onto anybody and expect them NOT to react.....and that's what all these efforts to quarantine FF program benefits/seat pitch etc are effectively attempting to do......
As already stated upthread... it's like telling retailers they can't increase prices....
You can't legislate costs onto anybody and expect them NOT to react.....and that's what all these efforts to quarantine FF program benefits/seat pitch etc are effectively attempting to do......
As already stated upthread... it's like telling retailers they can't increase prices....
May 4, 2017, 2:50 am
#20
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
It seems to me that many of these efforts are a little naïve..... in that many people seem to think certain things they don't like (points expiry for instance) can be wished away legislatively..... while assuming that nothing else will change.
You can't legislate costs onto anybody and expect them NOT to react.....and that's what all these efforts to quarantine FF program benefits/seat pitch etc are effectively attempting to do......
As already stated upthread... it's like telling retailers they can't increase prices....
You can't legislate costs onto anybody and expect them NOT to react.....and that's what all these efforts to quarantine FF program benefits/seat pitch etc are effectively attempting to do......
As already stated upthread... it's like telling retailers they can't increase prices....
There are ways to regulate businesses in ways that help consumers, including with regard to costs incurred by consumers.
May 4, 2017, 8:12 am
#21
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 3,955
(This development was originally pointed out at Rewards Canada blog)
Personally, I like it. I'd rather know in advance that everything will be gone on X date every 3-5 years, but that within that span, there aren't any moving targets.
May 4, 2017, 9:25 am
#22
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canadia
Programs: A loyal Amerisuites customer... oh wait
Posts: 2,033
In theory, this bill sounds like a great idea. In practice, it sends shivers down my spine. I fear what happened with contests - Quebec tightened the rules regulating contests open to Quebec residents, so now 90% of all contests simply exclude Quebec residents rather than comply. Will rewards programs really want to give up this much flexibility? Aeroplan has enough at stake to want to comply or fight this, but other programs? Worst-case scenario is that Quebec residents will be excluded from all outside rewards schemes - airline, hotel, etc. This potentially could be disastrous for Quebec point-collectors if it passes.
The problem isn't going to be with companies that are have a large presence in Quebec, like Aeroplan.
It'll be the US and international companies, who already organize their rewards programs however they see fit. If you're running the rewards program for SPG or Marriott or Delta, and someone comes in and says Quebec has some changes they want to impose on you, I think you have three choices:
1 • change your entire worldwide program to fit the Quebec rules
2 • offer a "no expiry" deal, but only for Quebec residents, thereby opening up your program to scrutiny by everybody who doesn't get that deal
3 • just decide you need to exclude Quebec residents from your program benefits... the same way you probably already do from contests you run.
May 4, 2017, 11:58 am
#23
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ottawa and Montreal
Programs: SPG Gold / IHG Spire / Emerald Executive Elite
Posts: 457
^
you have three choices:
1 • change your entire worldwide program to fit the Quebec rules
2 • offer a "no expiry" deal, but only for Quebec residents, thereby opening up your program to scrutiny by everybody who doesn't get that deal
3 • just decide you need to exclude Quebec residents from your program benefits... the same way you probably already do from contests you run.
you have three choices:
1 • change your entire worldwide program to fit the Quebec rules
2 • offer a "no expiry" deal, but only for Quebec residents, thereby opening up your program to scrutiny by everybody who doesn't get that deal
3 • just decide you need to exclude Quebec residents from your program benefits... the same way you probably already do from contests you run.
Some US programs "might" have a no expiry deal only for Quebec residents. It could manageable. By example, Mileage Plus has a less restrictive (in $) Elite requirements for Canadians (and also for other non-US countries).
But yes, most will just decide to exclude Quebec residents from program benefits.
==> I believe Quebec should get Ontario on board for a similar rule. Should be easy as Ontario was looking into the Air Miles expiration fiasco not too long ago...
Last edited by YUL; May 4, 2017 at 12:04 pm
May 5, 2017, 12:28 pm
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canadia
Programs: A loyal Amerisuites customer... oh wait
Posts: 2,033
Patrick makes a good post here:
Great news! Quebec drops the mile/point value retention from proposed bill
http://blog.rewardscanada.ca/2017/05...m_campaign=571
Great news! Quebec drops the mile/point value retention from proposed bill
http://blog.rewardscanada.ca/2017/05...m_campaign=571
May 5, 2017, 4:49 pm
#27
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: ba silver
Posts: 729
Some sweepstakes exclude Quebec residents because the Regie Des Courses Et Des Lotteries imposes strict restrictions. ( Vermont also does it too to a much lesser extent). For any prize over $99 the sweepstakes must put up a bond, agree to settle any disputes in Quebec and pay a fee of 5-10% of the value of the total prizes given out before getting a permit, and must not make any purchase a condition of getting entered in the contest. The government in Quebec makes a lot of money with it' s lotteries and does not want any competition, so a lot of companies choose not to offer Quebec residents the chance.
May 28, 2017, 10:27 pm
#29
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Charleston, SC, USA
Programs: Avis Pref+, Hyatt Explorist, Marriott Life Gold, Honors Silver, IHG Plat via MC.
Posts: 6,786
The huge difference between airlines, hotel co.s, etc. raising prices in points vs. a store raising prices in cash is: Cash can be spent anywhere! If you don't like Esso's price of gasoline, you can go to Petro-Canada. If you don't like Provigo's price increases, bring your loonies to Loblaw's. But AeroPesos can be spent only at Aeroplan's Company Store, which dictates what they are worth. Likewise SkyPesos or Hilton Honors points.
May 30, 2017, 9:51 am
#30
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA Gold 1MM, AS MVP, UA Silver, WN A-List, Marriott LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 52,572
This.
None of the analogies hold, because miles are a nebulous entity.
Although comparing them to scrip is probably the *closest* analogy I've seen around here. Hadn't thought of them that way before. (Of course, real scrip and real company stores probably didn't have many opportunities for "information arbitrage".
)
I favor regulation when it's done to combat unethical practices. I'd love to see fuel surcharges and resort fees banned, for example: their sole purpose is to trick and deceive. Travel companies have proven over and over again that they cannot be trusted to advertise fairly, so a government body enforcing basic consumer protections is a good thing.
But beyond that, the unintended consequence of overregulation is either the wholesale reboot or a dramatic watering-down of awards. Neither of those are a good thing.
None of the analogies hold, because miles are a nebulous entity.
Although comparing them to scrip is probably the *closest* analogy I've seen around here. Hadn't thought of them that way before. (Of course, real scrip and real company stores probably didn't have many opportunities for "information arbitrage".
)I favor regulation when it's done to combat unethical practices. I'd love to see fuel surcharges and resort fees banned, for example: their sole purpose is to trick and deceive. Travel companies have proven over and over again that they cannot be trusted to advertise fairly, so a government body enforcing basic consumer protections is a good thing.
But beyond that, the unintended consequence of overregulation is either the wholesale reboot or a dramatic watering-down of awards. Neither of those are a good thing.
