[FARE GONE] Wickedly Low Biz Class Fare from YYZ to LCA (Cyprus) on AZ (Alitalia)
Apr 12, 2006, 9:44 am
#3676
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
Originally Posted by PHLDividends
Thanks - forgot that in the initial post. Also, the Westlaw cite is 1986 WL 15185 (Case No. 86 AP 442, Dec. 30, 1986).
The outcome was never decided in court (that I can find). Once the summary judgment was reversed, it is likely that TWA settled so that there would be no adverse (to the airlines) precedent on the books.
Apr 12, 2006, 9:44 am
#3677
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SJC and AUS
Programs: AA PLT, CO Silver, frequent WN patron
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by yyzlhr
Everyone who has tickets or has told they willget their tickets-- have you been charged by Alitalia the ticket amount?
I booked via travelocity.ca and have been chagred to my credit card, therefore good to go, but if there has been no charge for others then I would still be "worried" of how they are dealing with this.
I booked via travelocity.ca and have been chagred to my credit card, therefore good to go, but if there has been no charge for others then I would still be "worried" of how they are dealing with this.
They've still cancelled them, despite that and the fact that we have tickets in hand.
Apr 12, 2006, 9:48 am
#3678
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Riverside, CA
Programs: *wood, UA, HHonors
Posts: 1,581
Originally Posted by PHLDividends
Seriously, you can say "the sky is green" or "airplanes fly because of magic dust from a secret coven of witches" 100 times, but it doesn't make it any more true than you repeating the mantra about fares not being guaranteed until ticketed. ...
The Court reversed summary judgment for the airline on this issue, holding that:
[E]vidence exists that [the airline] made a previous offer to appellant of $472 per ticket. The question then remains if and when [appellant's] acceptance of the $472 offer occurred. Construing these facts in a light most favorable to appellant, it is evidence that a genuine issue of material fact exists. Consequently, granting summary judgment was inappropriate."
Sure sounds to me like a reasonable person could argue that fares may, in some cases, be construed as guaranteed before ticketing.
The Court reversed summary judgment for the airline on this issue, holding that:
[E]vidence exists that [the airline] made a previous offer to appellant of $472 per ticket. The question then remains if and when [appellant's] acceptance of the $472 offer occurred. Construing these facts in a light most favorable to appellant, it is evidence that a genuine issue of material fact exists. Consequently, granting summary judgment was inappropriate."
Sure sounds to me like a reasonable person could argue that fares may, in some cases, be construed as guaranteed before ticketing.
What happened on remand? Did you remember to Shepardize the case?
Apr 12, 2006, 9:51 am
#3679
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by LapLap
You're a big man! 
Here's the link: http://svc.travelocity.com/info/info...WINDOW,00.html
It's in section 7 - limitation of liability
Here's the link: http://svc.travelocity.com/info/info...WINDOW,00.html
It's in section 7 - limitation of liability
I don't know that that applies to their guarantee. It might, but I'm not a lawyer. It seems to be more about loss of money or damages related to using the website. I suppose that applies to their guarantee, but it doesn't seem to, at least to me. Even if they weren't legally liable, I am quite adept at PR and could probably create a stink about it, if I felt it was worth it. I'd much rather come to a mutually amenable agreement.
Apr 12, 2006, 9:54 am
#3680
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 2,596
3.10. The ticket purchased by the passenger is valid only for the segment or segments specified on the ticket, from the place of departure to the place of destination, including any agreed stopping place. The fare paid by the passenger refers to carriage as specified on the ticket. The fare and applicable rule, as defined in Art. I, form an integral and essential part of the Contract.
This is from AZ's contract of carriage. I can't copy out of my online IATA handbook. Sorry
Here is the whole thing
http://www.alitalia.com/Images/CGT_e...tcm9-10352.pdf
This is from AZ's contract of carriage. I can't copy out of my online IATA handbook. Sorry
Here is the whole thing
http://www.alitalia.com/Images/CGT_e...tcm9-10352.pdf
Last edited by umguy; Apr 12, 2006 at 10:02 am
Apr 12, 2006, 9:55 am
#3681
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: US Chairman's, Marriott Platinum Premier, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold, Hertz 5*, Etc.
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by JMR
Suriving a motion for Summ J is a very low bar. Winning at Summ J is a very high bar. That the airline won Summ J at the lower court, albeit overturned on appeal, suggests a strong airline position against a weak passenger position.
What happened on remand? Did you remember to Shepardize the case?
What happened on remand? Did you remember to Shepardize the case?
Yes - I shepardized (actually, KeyCited) the case. Nothing on remand - I think that the previous poster must have been right that TWA settled the case rather than lose it outright. The fact that the airline won summary judgment before the "Franklin County Municipal Court" doesn't really bother me at all, since it was overturned on appeal. I cannot find a single case that goes in the opposite direction - I wonder if Orbitz and AZ want to risk an adverse decision that might affect all future fares.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:00 am
#3682
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: AA-Plat, UA Prem Ex, Delta Gold, SPG-Gold, Priority Club-Gold
Posts: 123
Az
AS more and more people call and email AZ and the various operators...I was wondering if AZ might actually get totally pissed off and cancel ALL the tickets! Can they do this after having honored the ticketed ones?
I too would like to change certain elements of mine...but am wondering if we would have more chance if we did them closer to individual travel times - when this situation has cooled down.
I presume right now AZ and others are inundated with requests simply to issue tickets for these un-ticketed booked pax, and so maybe they have zero interest and or time to deal with dozens of ticketed pax asking to re-route via points A and B.
Dont get me wrong, I believe it is an AZ responsibility - but wondering if our timing is a little off.
I too would like to change certain elements of mine...but am wondering if we would have more chance if we did them closer to individual travel times - when this situation has cooled down.
I presume right now AZ and others are inundated with requests simply to issue tickets for these un-ticketed booked pax, and so maybe they have zero interest and or time to deal with dozens of ticketed pax asking to re-route via points A and B.
Dont get me wrong, I believe it is an AZ responsibility - but wondering if our timing is a little off.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:00 am
#3683
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SFO sometimes
Programs: UA 1K, AA gold, A3 gold
Posts: 1,634
Are we every going to get the same answers??
Just called travelocity, nice agent said for date changes I would have to send them the tickets FIRST before space can be reserved?! I asked what if availability dissappears? Whatever, figured will deal with that later.
Then conferenced with AZ res... Said we would be CALLED when Rome gets around to reinstating ours. Updated the phone number, asked the agent to annotate that we checked the fare rules and date change are allowed... had him do that in all three reservations. Completed conf call.
Called AZ direct... checked contact info had updated phone number, but NO NOTATION REGARDING THE DATE CHANGE ISSUE
Was told Rome is reinstating these in chronological order and no definite time frame!
Then conferenced with AZ res... Said we would be CALLED when Rome gets around to reinstating ours. Updated the phone number, asked the agent to annotate that we checked the fare rules and date change are allowed... had him do that in all three reservations. Completed conf call.
Called AZ direct... checked contact info had updated phone number, but NO NOTATION REGARDING THE DATE CHANGE ISSUE
Was told Rome is reinstating these in chronological order and no definite time frame!
Apr 12, 2006, 10:01 am
#3684
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,553
I am not a lawyer, but on a side note, there's an interesting editorial in the latest issue of Consumer Reports which talks about online merchants and implied warranties of merchantability, unenforceable disclaimers, and other things we've been talking about on this and other recent threads which may be of interest.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:04 am
#3685
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by umguy
3.10. The ticket purchased by the passenger is valid only for the segment or segments specified on the ticket, from the place of departure to the place of destination, including any agreed stopping place. The fare paid by the passenger refers to carriage as specified on the ticket. The fare and applicable rule, as defined in Art. I, form an integral and essential part of the Contract.
This is from AZ's contract of carriage. I can't copy out of my online IATA handbook. Sorry
This is from AZ's contract of carriage. I can't copy out of my online IATA handbook. Sorry
Apr 12, 2006, 10:05 am
#3686
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 18,391
Originally Posted by coolw12
I don't know that that applies to their guarantee. It might, but I'm not a lawyer. It seems to be more about loss of money or damages related to using the website. I suppose that applies to their guarantee, but it doesn't seem to, at least to me. Even if they weren't legally liable, I am quite adept at PR and could probably create a stink about it, if I felt it was worth it. I'd much rather come to a mutually amenable agreement.
Sure there’ll be a department working on this. They won’t be working fast, there’s no reason why they feel they should be. Nobody is leaving for LCA before May.
Now that the initial ‘crisis’ (oh what to do! Oh what to do!) is over, I don’t believe anybody at AZ will be giving this much thought until Easter is well and truly behind them. I can’t imagine much more will happen until the 24th April – so I really don’t think there is any reason to get worked up or riled before then.
I think that a big issue here is that those who have their bookings confirmed don’t want to wait to change their flight dates as they are worried that availability will become scarce once everyone else with an unconfirmed ticket gets theirs reinstated.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:10 am
#3687
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CHI, BOS, SFO
Programs: AA EXP, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,667
Originally Posted by HeathrowGuy
Reply from Orbitz - didn't address jack:
Dear HeathrowGuy,
Thank you for contacting Orbitz.
In reviewing your account, I show that you have a confirmed flight
reservation titled 'Milan 8/XX/06'.
Please note, airlines determine the rules for changes and cancellations,
as well as the fees associated with them. Also note, the fare rules that
were displayed to you during the booking process shall continue to apply
and the airline shall not make any changes to these rules.
To find the detailed fare rules applicable to your reservation, please
follow the steps mentioned below:
1. Go to 'My Trips' (http://www.orbitz.com/App/PerformDisplayMyTrips)
2. Under 'My Trips', click 'View Full Trip Details' to view itinerary
information.
3. Click 'Fare Rules' at the bottom of the page.
4. See what change/exchange fees apply.
During the booking process you may view if the ticket is refundable or
non-refundable and the other rules applicable to your reservation by
clicking on the link 'Rules and restrictions' under the heading 'Review
fare rules, terms, and conditions' on the 'Traveler information' page.
You may also view the change fees that would incur to make changes to
the reservation by clicking on the link 'change fees'.
We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.
Sincerely,
Mike
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com
So now it's time to make the issue so darned clear that even a "plain reading" will make the issue obvious:
Mike:
Thank you for responding to my previous message.
I am fully aware of how to access the fare rules via Orbitz. And I am telling you, in no uncertain terms, that Alitalia has CHANGED the fare rules since the time of ticket purchase. I specifically call your attention to the text listed in the penalty and stopover sections of the fare rules - compare the text on the website, and the text from the time of purchase (as displayed in the attachment, which is a computer screen shot taken at the time of purchase). Alitalia has deceptively attempted to change the language post-purchase. This move by Alitalia is unacceptable, and contrary to Orbitz business principles and industry practices, not to mention contract law.
I fully expect Orbitz to raise this issue with Alitalia and require the imposition of the fare rules that existed at time of purchase, and not attempt to impose some new set of arbitrary text some time after the fact. I appreciate the hard work that Orbitz has done thus far to require Alitalia to honor the bookings, and hope that Orbitz will complete the task so that current and future Orbitz users may continue to have confidence in what they are buying from your website.
Regards,
HeathrowGuy
I'll let y'all know what response I get next.
Dear HeathrowGuy,
Thank you for contacting Orbitz.
In reviewing your account, I show that you have a confirmed flight
reservation titled 'Milan 8/XX/06'.
Please note, airlines determine the rules for changes and cancellations,
as well as the fees associated with them. Also note, the fare rules that
were displayed to you during the booking process shall continue to apply
and the airline shall not make any changes to these rules.
To find the detailed fare rules applicable to your reservation, please
follow the steps mentioned below:
1. Go to 'My Trips' (http://www.orbitz.com/App/PerformDisplayMyTrips)
2. Under 'My Trips', click 'View Full Trip Details' to view itinerary
information.
3. Click 'Fare Rules' at the bottom of the page.
4. See what change/exchange fees apply.
During the booking process you may view if the ticket is refundable or
non-refundable and the other rules applicable to your reservation by
clicking on the link 'Rules and restrictions' under the heading 'Review
fare rules, terms, and conditions' on the 'Traveler information' page.
You may also view the change fees that would incur to make changes to
the reservation by clicking on the link 'change fees'.
We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.
Sincerely,
Mike
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com
So now it's time to make the issue so darned clear that even a "plain reading" will make the issue obvious:
Mike:
Thank you for responding to my previous message.
I am fully aware of how to access the fare rules via Orbitz. And I am telling you, in no uncertain terms, that Alitalia has CHANGED the fare rules since the time of ticket purchase. I specifically call your attention to the text listed in the penalty and stopover sections of the fare rules - compare the text on the website, and the text from the time of purchase (as displayed in the attachment, which is a computer screen shot taken at the time of purchase). Alitalia has deceptively attempted to change the language post-purchase. This move by Alitalia is unacceptable, and contrary to Orbitz business principles and industry practices, not to mention contract law.
I fully expect Orbitz to raise this issue with Alitalia and require the imposition of the fare rules that existed at time of purchase, and not attempt to impose some new set of arbitrary text some time after the fact. I appreciate the hard work that Orbitz has done thus far to require Alitalia to honor the bookings, and hope that Orbitz will complete the task so that current and future Orbitz users may continue to have confidence in what they are buying from your website.
Regards,
HeathrowGuy
I'll let y'all know what response I get next.
Calling Orbitz, my booking was reinstated (the CSR was one of the most professional people I've ever dealt with)
She told me
1) Could not change LCA-FCO segment from Y class to D, even though D was available, since it would cause a reprice.
2) Could not add a stopover in FCO since it would cause a reprice.
Only able to change my seat assignments.
I wish I read this thread ahead of time, looks like we're fighting an uphill battle.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:11 am
#3688
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by angus1999
AS more and more people call and email AZ and the various operators...I was wondering if AZ might actually get totally pissed off and cancel ALL the tickets! Can they do this after having honored the ticketed ones?
I too would like to change certain elements of mine...but am wondering if we would have more chance if we did them closer to individual travel times - when this situation has cooled down.
I presume right now AZ and others are inundated with requests simply to issue tickets for these un-ticketed booked pax, and so maybe they have zero interest and or time to deal with dozens of ticketed pax asking to re-route via points A and B.
Dont get me wrong, I believe it is an AZ responsibility - but wondering if our timing is a little off.
I too would like to change certain elements of mine...but am wondering if we would have more chance if we did them closer to individual travel times - when this situation has cooled down.
I presume right now AZ and others are inundated with requests simply to issue tickets for these un-ticketed booked pax, and so maybe they have zero interest and or time to deal with dozens of ticketed pax asking to re-route via points A and B.
Dont get me wrong, I believe it is an AZ responsibility - but wondering if our timing is a little off.
The only thing, at least for me, is that, as a poor college student, I need to be able to make hostel reservations at the good ones before they are booked up, and in my past experience, they tend to book up quite far in advance. That's really my big issue with not being sure about the date change issue. That and whether it's worthwhile to spend the money getting to YYZ to go on the itin that has only 2 days in Italy.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:14 am
#3689
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Continental Gold Elite, United Premier Executive
Posts: 6,766
Originally Posted by Mateo4321
Calling Orbitz, my booking was reinstated (the CSR was one of the most professional people I've ever dealt with)
She told me
1) Could not change LCA-FCO segment from Y class to D, even though D was available, since it would cause a reprice.
2) Could not add a stopover in FCO since it would cause a reprice.
Only able to change my seat assignments.
I wish I read this thread ahead of time, looks like we're fighting an uphill battle.
She told me
1) Could not change LCA-FCO segment from Y class to D, even though D was available, since it would cause a reprice.
2) Could not add a stopover in FCO since it would cause a reprice.
Only able to change my seat assignments.
I wish I read this thread ahead of time, looks like we're fighting an uphill battle.
Apr 12, 2006, 10:15 am
#3690
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: DL DM MM, Hyatt LT Globalist, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold, Hertz PC
Posts: 2,141
Originally Posted by HeathrowGuy
Reply from Orbitz - didn't address jack:
Dear HeathrowGuy,
Thank you for contacting Orbitz.
In reviewing your account, I show that you have a confirmed flight
reservation titled 'Milan 8/XX/06'.
Please note, airlines determine the rules for changes and cancellations,
as well as the fees associated with them. Also note, the fare rules that
were displayed to you during the booking process shall continue to apply
and the airline shall not make any changes to these rules.
To find the detailed fare rules applicable to your reservation, please
follow the steps mentioned below:
1. Go to 'My Trips' (http://www.orbitz.com/App/PerformDisplayMyTrips)
2. Under 'My Trips', click 'View Full Trip Details' to view itinerary
information.
3. Click 'Fare Rules' at the bottom of the page.
4. See what change/exchange fees apply.
During the booking process you may view if the ticket is refundable or
non-refundable and the other rules applicable to your reservation by
clicking on the link 'Rules and restrictions' under the heading 'Review
fare rules, terms, and conditions' on the 'Traveler information' page.
You may also view the change fees that would incur to make changes to
the reservation by clicking on the link 'change fees'.
We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.
Sincerely,
Mike
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com
So now it's time to make the issue so darned clear that even a "plain reading" will make the issue obvious:
Mike:
Thank you for responding to my previous message.
I am fully aware of how to access the fare rules via Orbitz. And I am telling you, in no uncertain terms, that Alitalia has CHANGED the fare rules since the time of ticket purchase. I specifically call your attention to the text listed in the penalty and stopover sections of the fare rules - compare the text on the website, and the text from the time of purchase (as displayed in the attachment, which is a computer screen shot taken at the time of purchase). Alitalia has deceptively attempted to change the language post-purchase. This move by Alitalia is unacceptable, and contrary to Orbitz business principles and industry practices, not to mention contract law.
I fully expect Orbitz to raise this issue with Alitalia and require the imposition of the fare rules that existed at time of purchase, and not attempt to impose some new set of arbitrary text some time after the fact. I appreciate the hard work that Orbitz has done thus far to require Alitalia to honor the bookings, and hope that Orbitz will complete the task so that current and future Orbitz users may continue to have confidence in what they are buying from your website.
Regards,
HeathrowGuy
I'll let y'all know what response I get next.
Dear HeathrowGuy,
Thank you for contacting Orbitz.
In reviewing your account, I show that you have a confirmed flight
reservation titled 'Milan 8/XX/06'.
Please note, airlines determine the rules for changes and cancellations,
as well as the fees associated with them. Also note, the fare rules that
were displayed to you during the booking process shall continue to apply
and the airline shall not make any changes to these rules.
To find the detailed fare rules applicable to your reservation, please
follow the steps mentioned below:
1. Go to 'My Trips' (http://www.orbitz.com/App/PerformDisplayMyTrips)
2. Under 'My Trips', click 'View Full Trip Details' to view itinerary
information.
3. Click 'Fare Rules' at the bottom of the page.
4. See what change/exchange fees apply.
During the booking process you may view if the ticket is refundable or
non-refundable and the other rules applicable to your reservation by
clicking on the link 'Rules and restrictions' under the heading 'Review
fare rules, terms, and conditions' on the 'Traveler information' page.
You may also view the change fees that would incur to make changes to
the reservation by clicking on the link 'change fees'.
We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.
Sincerely,
Mike
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com
So now it's time to make the issue so darned clear that even a "plain reading" will make the issue obvious:
Mike:
Thank you for responding to my previous message.
I am fully aware of how to access the fare rules via Orbitz. And I am telling you, in no uncertain terms, that Alitalia has CHANGED the fare rules since the time of ticket purchase. I specifically call your attention to the text listed in the penalty and stopover sections of the fare rules - compare the text on the website, and the text from the time of purchase (as displayed in the attachment, which is a computer screen shot taken at the time of purchase). Alitalia has deceptively attempted to change the language post-purchase. This move by Alitalia is unacceptable, and contrary to Orbitz business principles and industry practices, not to mention contract law.
I fully expect Orbitz to raise this issue with Alitalia and require the imposition of the fare rules that existed at time of purchase, and not attempt to impose some new set of arbitrary text some time after the fact. I appreciate the hard work that Orbitz has done thus far to require Alitalia to honor the bookings, and hope that Orbitz will complete the task so that current and future Orbitz users may continue to have confidence in what they are buying from your website.
Regards,
HeathrowGuy
I'll let y'all know what response I get next.
