DOT May 8, 2015 Notice: Enforcement Policy Regarding Mistaken Fares
May 11, 2015, 7:59 pm
#61
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I remember the last time regulators got lax with the ones they regulate... Ah, transocean!
I mean, business never seeks to undermine the consumer or cut corners or anything... NEVER!
I mean, business never seeks to undermine the consumer or cut corners or anything... NEVER!
May 11, 2015, 8:03 pm
#62
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Delta $150 US to EU mistake fares? KE Palau fares a mistake fare?
Last edited by eloraculo; May 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm Reason: Fixed
May 11, 2015, 8:14 pm
#63
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Anyway, employees do not follow regulations up to the period. They are not robots or automated systems. An employee will bound to get suspicious of a cheaper than normal fare in a particular itinerary. I'm sure you've seen a couple times where employees make a few mistakes here and there on other places. It's the fact someone will pull the "mistake" fare card argument somewhere and cause a small fit somewhere because of some mis-understanding.
I'm making the point that it won't happen on a regular basis, but it also will not happen never.
May 11, 2015, 8:22 pm
#64
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I can only roll my eyes at the heights some of you will go to in trying to rationalize your way out of what is a very simple and straight forward matter. Airlines are not capriciously going to cancel legitimate published fares. This is a very clear and specific exemption to deal with mistake fares that can arise for a variety of reasons. Given there are hundreds of thousands of fares revised daily, even the best Sigma error targets can be expected to generate a couple of these every year.
ADDED: What if the mistake fare is the result of mistaken analysis and reasoning, not a fat finger or exchange rate error or a case of forgetting to add surcharges, etc.?
So what are all those penalties about if passengers are "stranded" on the tarmac for more than a given amount of time? DOT has introduced a lot of consumer friendly regulations of late. However, the government is also there to ensure there is a viable domestic airline industry and part of that requires these companies to actually make money. If you check the record, US airlines have seldom made a profit in over 50 years of post-WWII operations, and before that required US Mail contracts to survive. The majors have all been through bankruptcy once or even twice. Sometimes when I read the posts around here, I have to wonder if anyone has ever run a business or dealt with meeting a pay roll. Seems you just spend your employers' money on airline tickets and hotel rooms and think you're masters of the universe!
Last edited by Pat89339; May 11, 2015 at 9:54 pm Reason: Use multi-quote
May 11, 2015, 8:39 pm
#65
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My fear would be that airlines could offer very low fares and when they don't generate the anticipated response from competitors and customers, declare that those fares were mistakes and attempt to void the tickets. They're not mistakes in that it was reasonable to expect competitors and customers to behave in a given way, but it just didn't happen that way and, as a result, the airline in question regrets that if offered the fare.
ADDED: What if the mistake fare is the result of mistaken analysis and reasoning, not a fat finger or exchange rate error or a case of forgetting to add surcharges, etc.?
ADDED: What if the mistake fare is the result of mistaken analysis and reasoning, not a fat finger or exchange rate error or a case of forgetting to add surcharges, etc.?
Can Delta pull all the sold tickets and say 'opps', just kidding. It was a mistake to do this?
May 11, 2015, 8:42 pm
#66
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A good example... right now... Delta First Class... SEA-ANC, $185 one way / $370ish RT - many dates. Is that a mistake fare or a tactical marketing strategy? Available all day today.
Can Delta pull all the sold tickets and say 'opps', just kidding. It was a mistake to do this?
Can Delta pull all the sold tickets and say 'opps', just kidding. It was a mistake to do this?
May 11, 2015, 9:06 pm
#67
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My fear would be that airlines could offer very low fares and when they don't generate the anticipated response from competitors and customers, declare that those fares were mistakes and attempt to void the tickets. They're not mistakes in that it was reasonable to expect competitors and customers to behave in a given way, but it just didn't happen that way and, as a result, the airline in question regrets that if offered the fare.
ADDED: What if the mistake fare is the result of mistaken analysis and reasoning, not a fat finger or exchange rate error or a case of forgetting to add surcharges, etc.?
ADDED: What if the mistake fare is the result of mistaken analysis and reasoning, not a fat finger or exchange rate error or a case of forgetting to add surcharges, etc.?
The basic principles of mistake in contract law are a good basis for these discussions.
Consumer laws such as the DOT's serve several purposes, but a couple of key ones are to (a) offer protection in a simple, easy to find location, and (b) to provide an avenue for recourse without the consumer needing the time or (potentially) deep pockets to take an airline to court.
But the current DOT 'protections' probably when too far in the case of 'bad faith' purchasers... it completely threw established law out the window by saying it didn't really matter if the purchaser knew it was a mistake, or acted unfairly, or it the result unfair on the airline.
Bring back the original intent of the regulation - 'consumer protection' - but to have the regulations as a form of sword if probably a step too far, which is what the DOT is now responding to.
May 11, 2015, 9:10 pm
#68
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An actual fare available on AA.com. The fare is $2. It isn't a mistake, but who's to say the airline doesn't come back and say "Ooops, that was supposed to be $200."
Code:
Adult fare, taxes and carrier-imposed fees Base fare $2.00 USD Per person CARRIER-IMPOSED FEES $516.00 USD PASSENGER SERVICE CHARGE $26.40 USD DENMARK PASSENGER SERVICE CHARGE $82.90 USD UNITED KINGDOM TRANSPORTATION TAX $35.40 USD UNITED STATES US APHIS USER FEE $5.00 USD UNITED STATES PASSENGER FACILITY CHARGE $9.00 USD UNITED STATES US FEDERAL INSPECTION FEE $7.00 USD UNITED STATES US SECURITY FEE $5.60 USD UNITED STATES US CUSTOMS USER FEE $5.50 USD UNITED STATES Total Adult taxes and carrier-imposed fees $692.80 USD
May 11, 2015, 9:46 pm
#69
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I will agree that the airlines will now cancel these tickets within hours of them finding out, be it through internal audit or through reading of a blog post, which may or may not be within hours of someone purchasing one.
Last edited by legalalien; May 11, 2015 at 9:51 pm
May 11, 2015, 10:07 pm
#70
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What is a mistake fare? Defination please.
How do I know it is a mistake fare? Just because it seems an great bargain it might be legit. This leaves the customer at risk.
May 11, 2015, 10:41 pm
#71
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First, it isn't a Ł1; it is $2. It originates from the US.
Second, the point is the fare is $2. Taxes and carrier imposed fees have no baring on the DOT ruling. It is always about the underlying fare, which in this case is $2. AA has said they don't issue $0 fares, but $2 is OK?
The whole $2 fare and $516 in YQ is stupid anyway, but that is a topic for another thread.
Second, the point is the fare is $2. Taxes and carrier imposed fees have no baring on the DOT ruling. It is always about the underlying fare, which in this case is $2. AA has said they don't issue $0 fares, but $2 is OK?
The whole $2 fare and $516 in YQ is stupid anyway, but that is a topic for another thread.
May 12, 2015, 1:43 am
#72
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If I had to develop a rule, it would be that in order to invoke a "mistake", an airline would have to publish (in an accessible location and with regular updates) some sort of indication as to what the "correct" fare range on various routes would be, with particular attention given to the lower end of a regular "promotional" range (e.g. $599 one-way JFK-LAX in F for VX). Anything within that range would be deemed correct (even if the airline screwed up and released their entire inventory on Thanksgiving Wednesday at the bottom end of the range). Below that (e.g. $249 on the same route) they should have 24 hours to clear things up (I'd allow them until noon on the next business day if they extend the same courtesy to passengers as a matter of policy), but with the burden being on them. FWIW, if an airline says that their "lowest regular promotional fare" is $X on a route and they start running sales far below that without announcing the change there also ought to be hell to pay if they try to use that posted lower limit.
This wouldn't protect crazy "mistake" fares (at least, not in all cases), but it would also mean that wacky inventory releases would be a "touch luck" case for the airline.
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On the other end of things, if a last-minute "mistake" is released it can be hard to tell if someone was "chasing a mistake" or simply shoving together a really good deal. For example, let's take the idea of NYC-LON $1000 in F. Ok, stupidly good deal, but if I get offered that and I have the time and money to make the trip a good time you can bet I'll dive at said trip without thinking twice...even if I have to shove hotels and other stuff together in a few hours.
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One other thought would be that there's a real problem on the airline side. Why don't they have some controls in place whereby a fare that is "out of whack" has to be confirmed by a supervisor before it goes up on the website?
This wouldn't protect crazy "mistake" fares (at least, not in all cases), but it would also mean that wacky inventory releases would be a "touch luck" case for the airline.
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
On the other end of things, if a last-minute "mistake" is released it can be hard to tell if someone was "chasing a mistake" or simply shoving together a really good deal. For example, let's take the idea of NYC-LON $1000 in F. Ok, stupidly good deal, but if I get offered that and I have the time and money to make the trip a good time you can bet I'll dive at said trip without thinking twice...even if I have to shove hotels and other stuff together in a few hours.
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One other thought would be that there's a real problem on the airline side. Why don't they have some controls in place whereby a fare that is "out of whack" has to be confirmed by a supervisor before it goes up on the website?
May 12, 2015, 6:42 am
#73
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I find it interesting that, at most, only 110 people actually complained about AA not honoring its "hold" fare promise related to the March mistake fare to China. You can clearly see the spike in the recently released DOT Consumer Report for May that covers the March period (p. 41).
http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/fil...015MayATCR.pdf
http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/fil...015MayATCR.pdf
May 12, 2015, 6:51 am
#74
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I find it interesting that, at most, only 110 people actually complained about AA not honoring its "hold" fare promise related to the March mistake fare to China. You can clearly see the spike in the recently released DOT Consumer Report for May that covers the March period (p. 41).
http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/fil...015MayATCR.pdf
http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/fil...015MayATCR.pdf
May 12, 2015, 8:03 am
#75
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http://hub.aa.com/en/nr/pressrelease...er-2015-profit
$1.2 Billion first quarter 2015 profit at AA.
http://news.delta.com/2015-04-15-Del...Quarter-Profit
$594 Million first quarter 2015 profit at Delta.
http://www.usnews.com/news/business/...million-for-1q
$508 Million first quarter 2015 profit at United.
While this is a bit unusual, notice that the airlines aren't dropping prices to reflect lowered operating costs as they increase them when operating costs go up. Nor are they providing more services or lowering fees on 'extras.'