Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Mileage Run Deals > Mileage Run Discussion
Reload this Page >

Fuel Dumping: An Idiot's Guide

Fuel Dumping: An Idiot's Guide

Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:32 pm
  #31  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by Mr. Bean
OP, ever wonder why what you are suggesting hasn't already been done? The tricks thread has been around for a pretty long time now.
Yes, and because it's been around for so long it's become too big and the information in there is very hard to decipher. When you try to ask questions you are met with hostility. People who have less tenacity (and even less time) than me just give up. Which is where I come in.
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:41 pm
  #32  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by janetdoe
You asked a provocative and insulting question: whether any of the "scams" that we "riffraff" were using would work in business class.
Show me where I said that I consider anybody PARTICIPATING in that thread who is flying economy as being "riff raff"? It was meant to be a humourous, tongue-in-cheek post at the occassional "riff raff" you find in economy, such as drunks.

Originally Posted by janetdoe
To insult people by calling them "riffraff" and accusing them of running "scams" and then expecting them to politely answer you is beyond ridiculous, and certainly does not deserve a polite response.
And I'm sorry, but booking flights that you have no intention of taking to exploit a loophole is a "scam". I'm not saying I don't do it myself but at least admit to it.



Originally Posted by skunker
So, no one spoonfed you the answers and you got your panties twisted. This is your response.
Why do you say I was asking to be spoonfed? I asked a simple question that wasn't going to give much away. I certainly wasn't asking to be spoonfed. I just tend to fly business class if I can so I wanted to know if these "tricks" worked. A simple "yes" and I would have then delved into the thread to try and work some out for myself as I know it was worth my while. I'm not particularly interested in paying even $300 if it's still in economy. But that's just me.

Anyway, I think it was giggy who triggered it, so you have him to thank.

Originally Posted by skunker
I think you would be better served reading the thread and not trying to get back at those who you feel wronged you.
Oh believe me. I've read the thread alright, amongst other things elsewhere.
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:44 pm
  #33  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SEA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
This is what I started off saying in THAT thread but what I received in return was abuse, mickey taking, condescending posts, and just general hostility.

...

Maybe they won't try to be so clever next time.
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
Of course the "clique" who make smart comments won't like it but tough!
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
The point is, the few members in that clique who know all the code have brought this on themselves.
It appears that your main goal is really to 'punish' the people in the trick-it thread by removing the competitive advantage they've built up. Expose tricks, tricks dry up, and you have the last laugh on the people you feel have abused you?

I predict this will only cause that community to guard their secrets ever closer. The experience those in the forum have gained through trial and error is like a trade secret in the technology industry. They're the ones doing the R&D, inevitably they will reap the resulting rewards.

It's a catch-22, in the end. I suspect that anyone who works hard to gain that competative advantage would be similarly disinclined to publicly share that information, since the act of sharing the information destroys the competative advantage.

Short-term, it's possible you'll kill a trick or two, but in the end I doubt you're going to be able to stop the practice. My $0.02.
atrich is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:44 pm
  #34  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 1 AU
Programs: Support the Tyrants Travel Club
Posts: 2,707
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
Yes, and because it's been around for so long it's become too big and the information in there is very hard to decipher. When you try to ask questions you are met with hostility. People who have less tenacity (and even less time) than me just give up. Which is where I come in.
Yeah. You might want to read that thread I linked. If you think you're getting abused now...
Mr. Bean is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:50 pm
  #35  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 389
Dear Sherwood Hampton,

You write that "only a small number of people know what on Earth that thread is about", but this is belied by the fact that the thread is more than 14,000 posts long, and still typically generates over 100 posts per week. To me this suggests an active, vibrant part of this community, rather than a dysfunctional one. Of course some users post more than others, but I have followed the thread closely for a little over six months now, and I have seen many new participants join the thread and become active contributors to it. This does not even count the participants who are well-versed in FD techniques but only rarely post in the thread (of which there more than you would expect).

You write that your goal for this thread is for "more people [to] benefit from this "trick" to bring down air fares". The trouble is that this is essentially an impossible goal to achieve. You may of course succeed in publicizing some tricks, in this thread or the other one; in that case those tricks will promptly be shut down, so that no additional people can benefit. An alternative would be to respect the norms of the FD community, norms which have evolved over the past few years to achieve *precisely* the goal that you espouse: keeping the deals alive so that their benefits can continue to be reaped.

It might be worth reflecting on your recent post that discusses the Pineapple Poke. To me, that post is some indication that you have indeed succeeded in learning something about fuel dumping. So perhaps the situation in that other thread is not as dire for you as you originally thought it was. I, for one, am far better at FD'ing now than I ever would have been if I hadn't had to work a lot of things out for myself -- I was forced to develop my own techniques for finding FDs, whereas if I'd just been told "here are a bunch of things that work sometimes", I would be limited by that. Think of us as your crusty old math teacher that refuses to tell you the answer because you'll understand better if you work it out for yourself.

Once you've been an active, positive contributor to the thread for some time, then it would be appropriate to voice any concerns that you might have about the culture of that thread; you'll have earned your say. Until then, it's like you're showing up at a hip-hop club for the first time and demanding that they play Salsa music; naturally you'll be told to go elsewhere if you don't like it here.
palefire is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:50 pm
  #36  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by Mr. Bean
Yeah. You might want to read that thread I linked. If you think you're getting abused now...
I expect people to abide by the terms and conditions of Flyertalk with regards insulting behaviour. Anybody transgressing these terms and conditions, then I expect the moderators to carry out their responsibilities.
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 3:55 pm
  #37  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by palefire
Once you've been an active, positive contributor to the thread for some time, then it would be appropriate to voice any concerns that you might have about the culture of that thread; you'll have earned your say. Until then, it's like you're showing up at a hip-hop club for the first time and demanding that they play Salsa music; naturally you'll be told to go elsewhere if you don't like it here.
Thank you for your considerate response.

Unfortunately I tried to get a little bit of help but was met with a hostile reaction. Maybe I would have then found some of my own and reposted them back in the thread. Like I said. Giggy forced me to find out EVERYTHING on my own, and now he's paying the price.

Originally Posted by palefire
It might be worth reflecting on your recent post that discusses the Pineapple Poke. To be, that post is some indication that you have indeed succeeded in learning something about fuel dumping.
Oh, you can bet your bottom Dollar I've learnt a thing or two.
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:08 pm
  #38  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SAN
Programs: Lots of faux metal
Posts: 6,379
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
Why do you say I was asking to be spoonfed? I asked a simple question that wasn't going to give much away. I certainly wasn't asking to be spoonfed. I just tend to fly business class if I can so I wanted to know if these "tricks" worked. A simple "yes" and I would have then delved into the thread to try and work some out for myself as I know it was worth my while. I'm not particularly interested in paying even $300 if it's still in economy. But that's just me.

Anyway, I think it was giggy who triggered it, so you have him to thank.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milea...l#post17197792
That's a very fine line.

I've spent the last eight hours working my way through this thread and the only conclusion I came to is that my time is worth too much to me and it's better just to pay the correct price.

Having said that, I did find a few fuel dumps. In the spirit of this thread and keeping things "vague", when going from C1 to C3 via the "Hellfire Express", a stopover in the "City of Obtuse Angles" allows one to make use of a "Bavarian Bellboy". Be sure to "clean up after yourself" though otherwise you may have to contend with a "half-pound, two-headed monster" whilst sipping a "Cool Colombian" on a C2-C3 half-price reduction. Any more and I'd be giving it away for free!!
Trolls will troll.
skunker is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:11 pm
  #39  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by atrich
It appears that your main goal is really to 'punish' the people in the trick-it thread by removing the competitive advantage they've built up. Expose tricks, tricks dry up, and you have the last laugh on the people you feel have abused you?

I predict this will only cause that community to guard their secrets ever closer. The experience those in the forum have gained through trial and error is like a trade secret in the technology industry. They're the ones doing the R&D, inevitably they will reap the resulting rewards.

It's a catch-22, in the end. I suspect that anyone who works hard to gain that competative advantage would be similarly disinclined to publicly share that information, since the act of sharing the information destroys the competative advantage.

Short-term, it's possible you'll kill a trick or two, but in the end I doubt you're going to be able to stop the practice. My $0.02.
I think everyone is making a big deal out of this, but in reality is very difficult to loose the competitive advantage that WWE, Giggy and the others have. Also, I don't think a lot of people care about double deckers and multi continent constructions, so it will only open the "low lying fruit".
I think IAHPHX is right on spot.
eloraculo is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:13 pm
  #40  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 389
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
Thank you for your considerate response.
You are welcome.

Unfortunately I tried to get a little bit of help but was met with a hostile reaction. Maybe I would have then found some of my own and reposted them back in the thread. Like I said. Giggy forced me to find out EVERYTHING on my own, and now he's paying the price.
To be fair, if you chose giggy or WWE as the person you were going to ask for help, then you may not have made the wisest choice. (I made a similar unwise choice once too! But only once.) The reason I say that it may not have been the wisest choice is that the thread is brimming over with evidence that they're not the first people to go to. giggy's posts are rarely more than a few words long -- he's pretty clearly not going to respond in an effusive way. WWE is even more direct, requesting in his posts that you not PM him. If you are looking to either of them as your first source of help, you may not be reading the social signals carefully enough. You may have been burnt a bit, but if you've been reading the thread, it probably shouldn't have come as a surprise.

In fact in some sense giggy and WWE are much more generous than they need to be. They don't actually need to post anything that they figure out. If the culture in the community becomes more open, presumably they will just stop, and their contributions will be lost.

You might also think about whether you are actually going to succeed in making giggy pay a price in any way. As far as I can tell, you are making yourself pay a fairly large price -- you are investing a lot of time for no real benefit of your own (since if you openly post everything that you figure out, you will not have the continuing benefit of it). But giggy and WWE will just melt into the background, happily keeping their knowledge to themselves.
palefire is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:24 pm
  #41  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by palefire
To be fair, if you chose giggy or WWE as the person you were going to ask for help, then you may not have made the wisest choice. (I made a similar unwise choice once too! But only once.
Interesting. ^

It's clear that this is an emotive subject.

I feel sorry for the mods because they have to clean up all this mess. It's not my intention to create work for them so maybe now is a good time to let things cool down a bit? Rest assured. If I get the green light and clarity on how much I am allowed to reveal, then I will post everything I know. But if I am "censored" by the mods, then it will just be a duplicate of the original "trick it" thread and be vague. which helps nobody.
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:42 pm
  #42  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Italy/Germany
Programs: AA EXP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
and now he's paying the price.
Wrong! You found out a few tricks? Let's say you found 5, or even 10?
You want to expose them? Fine. You don't create tricks that way, you copy and paste other people's work, and will kill the deal, while who plays by the rules will create new ways.

Bottomline: The deals you found out will not be working anymore, you will feel satisfied...until you realize that your 5 tricks dont work anymore.

So who pays the price?
r0me0 is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:50 pm
  #43  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SAN
Programs: Lots of faux metal
Posts: 6,379
Originally Posted by r0me0
Wrong! You found out a few tricks? Let's say you found 5, or even 10?
You want to expose them? Fine. You don't create tricks that way, you copy and paste other people's work, and will kill the deal, while who plays by the rules will create new ways.

Bottomline: The deals you found out will not be working anymore, you will feel satisfied...until you realize that your 5 tricks dont work anymore.

So who pays the price?
But, based on previous comments he doesn't want/care to use the tricks. He only flies business and prefers to pay the "real price". This is all out of spite.

Time to move on.
skunker is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:56 pm
  #44  
Suspended
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Keeping an eye on the BA Forum
Programs: Mucci des tres pathetiques
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by skunker
But, based on previous comments he doesn't want/care to use the tricks. He only flies business and prefers to pay the "real price". This is all out of spite.

Time to move on.
No it's not "time to move on". This is a thread that I've created, with the endorsement of BiziBB, to explain fuel dumping. If you don't want to contribute then don't, but don't come on here saying "time to move on".
Sherwood Hampton is offline  
Old Oct 12, 2011, 4:59 pm
  #45  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Munich, Germany
Programs: LH HON, DL FO/MM, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, Accor Lifetime Platinum, Sixt Diamond
Posts: 6,174
Originally Posted by Sherwood Hampton
I feel sorry for the mods because they have to clean up all this mess. It's not my intention to create work for them so maybe now is a good time to let things cool down a bit?
I think that's a great idea, thus this thread (since it does not really serve its original purpuse) is being closed.

If you have the "guide" ready to post, feel free to let the moderators know so that this thread can be re-opened then.

In the meantime, dear Sherwood Hampton, let me remind you that my fellow mods have clearly shown you how to repsond to certain things (i.e. how the RBP functions works) - yet you choose to continue to discuss moderation etc. in public. If you continue to create even more mess that we need to clean up, rest assured that your account will receive a suspension according to the Flyertalk TOS.

Kind Regards


rcs85551
Moderator, Mileage Run forums
rcs85551 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.