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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyYX
I would be super po'd too if I was asked to take a wage cut as high as they are asking for the FAs and Pilots. I think I would say "no" and let Midwest file bankruptcy. Let the courts sort it all out. (
Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if I had to take a huge pay-cut like that as well. Unfortunately, many airline employees are between a rock and a hard place. It's not like they can find better paying work at other airlines.
As for having the bankruptcy court sort out the concessions, that's probably the last thing the union wants to happen. Things would likely to turn out much, much worse for the employees.
__________________ If you don't know where you are going, you might end up someplace else.
A point I forgot to include on the reduced 717 flying.
This fall the 717's increase from 88 to 99 seats. In a time of falling demand (both seasonal demand and possibly overall demand based on the economy) I suppose holding the line of frequencies is a reasonable response. That probably means one less trip to some markets, or a trip or two downgraded to the CRJ.
Pleasant? Ideal? Painless? None of the above, of course. But it might just be necessary.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyYX
I actually think that after all this mess is over with and if Midwest is still around, it is time for Tim Hoeksema to retire. You had your chance and now it is time to bow out.
I'm with you. Tim Hoeksema is a nice guy and did a tremendous job in getting Midwest off the ground and growing the airline during some pretty challenging times (the 1985 crash, the Northwest MKE hub, the 1991-1992 recession, etc.). I'll even give Hoeksema and company credit for managing to restructure Midwest in 2003 without having to seek Chapter 11 protection (and they were within hours of making such a filing).
With that said, some serious blunders were made under Hoeksema's watch. And they pre-date 9/11. Looking back, some of the worst decisions occurred between 1997 and 2000 and contributed directly to the dire situation the airline found itself in 2002-2003 and even today to some extent. They include not replacing the DC9s with new aircraft when plenty of cash was available, acquiring more and more MD80s which were too big for many of the core business markets, expansion into leisure destinations when the fare levels needed for the 2x2 seating just weren't there, some ill-advised expansion in places such as IND, and letting cost get out of control.
Hindsight is always 20/20 of course and some of the points mentioned above appeared to be good ideas at least on paper. Many people mistakenly believe Midwest didn't start encountering problems until 9/11. That's not true. The problems began to surface in 1999 and 2000.
__________________ If you don't know where you are going, you might end up someplace else.
How do the anticipated reductions in fleet and staffing compare to other carriers' announced cutbacks?
It's hard to compare directly because it is an ongoing process at most carriers right now.
But something that did make me gulp today was seeing that (among other widespread American cuts) they are completely dumping Albany and Providence. These are not small markets -- cities in the core belt of AA's system for decades. No more AA or AA*. Things must be pretty bad.
In addition, AA+AA* announced additional cuts of 62 flights from ORD, 43 flights from STL, 42 flights from DFW, and 42 flights from LGA. That last one is particularly noteworthy because of how sought after LGA access is and how lucrative the LGA market has always been. And AA is deciding to stop using 42 pairs of slots because they lose money. Things are serious.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knope2001
This fall the 717's increase from 88 to 99 seats. In a time of falling demand (both seasonal demand and possibly overall demand based on the economy) I suppose holding the line of frequencies is a reasonable response. That probably means one less trip to some markets, or a trip or two downgraded to the CRJ.
Midwest has not traditionally done this in the past, but I wonder if they'd ever consider flying reduced schedules on non-peak business days. For example, lets say they would fly MKE-DFW 5x daily on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays but offer only 3x or 4x daily the remainder of the week. Delta has done this in the past with some success. This could be especially beneficial during the fall and early winter months when overall demand will be weaker.
They could do the same with some of the leisure destinations. Markets like MCO, FLL, and LAS could have 1 trip per day on a regular basis but have extra segments added on peak days/periods.
This of course is just pure speculation on my part.
__________________ If you don't know where you are going, you might end up someplace else.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knope2001
But something that did make me gulp today was seeing that (among other widespread American cuts) they are completely dumping Albany and Providence. These are not small markets -- cities in the core belt of AA's system for decades. No more AA or AA*. Things must be pretty bad.
Things are serious.
And United is apparently ending all service to FLL and PBI. Not the same type of markets as ALB or PVD but the complete withdrawl from some markets is really astonishing.
__________________ If you don't know where you are going, you might end up someplace else.
Midwest has not traditionally done this in the past, but I wonder if they'd ever consider flying reduced schedules on non-peak business days.
They could do the same with some of the leisure destinations. Markets like MCO, FLL, and LAS could have 1 trip per day on a regular basis but have extra segments added on peak days/periods.
A number of years ago Midwest operated a Saturday, only, MKE-FLL flight, during the peak cruise season. Matching available aircraft with demand for specific markets and typical loads, based on day of week, makes sense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mke9499
It's called "survival mode."
No, Midwest was in survival mode before TPG/NW. Survival looks good now. The current status quo is more like burning your house in winter to stay warm mode.
Hindsight is 20/20. It is a shame that Midwest management waits until what appears the 11th hour to make changes. Why did they wait until it is too late? Was there no set of numbers to make the fleet work? Was there no set of concessions to make the MD-80s viable? Cuts would have been no doubt draconian, why was labor not involved to have a choice?
Apparently it was the same modus operandi with Skyway. Management waits too long until no course alteration is possible and then presents change as a faite accompli.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyYX
How is NWA defending their turf by letting Midwest go to the brink of bankruptcy???
Hmmmm, Northwest, let me think about Northwest, ah, here it is, Northwest does not give a fig about Midwest, and they don't give a fig about its $235 million investment.
It was and is about keeping an LCC out of the midwest, Minneapolis, and Minesotta. The $235M was cheap insurance to keep Air Tran at bay. Northwest is courageous, they will fight the competitive battle to the last using Midwest operations.
Only thing new I see in this story is the pay cuts the Pilots say they will have to endure. The Union says a pilot can go from a salary of $120,000 to $31,000 per year. Holy Crap! Even worse, the FA's say they will make a little over minimum wage which is $6.50 an hour in Wisconsin. I suspect most pilots and FA's will just quit.
I'm pretty disgusted right now with Midwest Management. I think they should all be fired!
Last edited by flyYX; Jun 26, 08 at 6:31 am.
Reason: added a closing comment
Only thing new I see in this story is the pay cuts the Pilots say they will have to endure. The Union says a pilot can go from a salary of $120,000 to $31,000 per year. Holy Crap! Even worse, the FA's say they will make a little over minimum wage which is $6.50 an hour in Wisconsin. I suspect most pilots and FA's will just quit.
I'm pretty disgusted right now with Midwest Management. I think they should all be fired!
The example you referenced from the JS is a pretty drastic example. While there will be some extreme pay cuts, I don't think the average cut will be that severe. Still, not a good situation for any of the employees. And I agree that many of the employees will seek other employment. If large numbers of them do it, that will complicate things and large employee turnover could affect the level of customer service, which is one of the aspects Midwest uses to set themselves apart from the competition. Hopefully YX can pull through this.
Only thing new I see in this story is the pay cuts the Pilots say they will have to endure. The Union says a pilot can go from a salary of $120,000 to $31,000 per year. Holy Crap! Even worse, the FA's say they will make a little over minimum wage which is $6.50 an hour in Wisconsin. I suspect most pilots and FA's will just quit.
I'm pretty disgusted right now with Midwest Management. I think they should all be fired!
I'm very, very skeptical about the pilot pay example, especially since it came directly from the union. This is way outside the range of the cuts being proposed by management. The pilots union probably planted this piece of information with the Journal Sentinel in hopes of scoring some quick PR points.
Pay cuts are a bitter pill to swallow. Yet, if you're a pilot what options do you really have? It's not like other carriers are in a hiring mode at the moment.
At least the union still has some, although very little, bargaining power. I can assure you that if the company needs to seek Chapter 11 the union will really be screwed. The bankruptcy judge is more interested in a viable business plan and will not hesitate to void the union contracts and impose management's recommendations.
We really don't know what's going on behind closed doors. I seriously doubt things are *as bad* as the union makes them out to be. Please take that comment as face value, though. I don't want anyone to underestimate the pain and utter frustration many of the employees at Midwest are currently experiencing. These are very difficult times for the U.S. airline industry and I really do feel for all of the employees affected.
__________________ If you don't know where you are going, you might end up someplace else.
Only thing new I see in this story is the pay cuts the Pilots say they will have to endure. The Union says a pilot can go from a salary of $120,000 to $31,000 per year. Holy Crap! Even worse, the FA's say they will make a little over minimum wage which is $6.50 an hour in Wisconsin. I suspect most pilots and FA's will just quit.
I'm pretty disgusted right now with Midwest Management. I think they should all be fired!
I completely agree Donald. While times are bad in situations like this I tend to be more concerned with the employees. Job cuts like this can force families into bankruptcy and with an economy like we are currently in, that could have drastic consequences.
Only thing new I see in this story is the pay cuts the Pilots say they will have to endure. The Union says a pilot can go from a salary of $120,000 to $31,000 per year.
. While times are bad in situations like this I tend to be more concerned with the employees. Job cuts like this can force families into bankruptcy and with an economy like we are currently in, that could have drastic consequences.
