perkunas

The question: Is it better to do something like 1000 once per week per card with a handful or normal purchases in between? Or is it better to do 500 twice per week per card with fewer purchases in between (potentially none)?

The story: I'm still kinda new to MS and I'm trying to be smart about it. I have 3 cards that I use (|nk, US Bink flexparks, and Am3x Hiltin), and my "goal" is to do ~12k-15k per month on an ongoing basis. This would mean approx $4-5k per card per month. CL on each card is ~20k so even inclusive of my normal monthly spend, the balance on any of the cards would rarely exceed $6k.

I have 5 bank accounts that I can deposit into. I'm currently doing maybe $8k per month of MS, ~90% of that going thru mobile deposit. I spread everything out fairly evenly, which means approx 1 deposit per bank per week of ~500.

I typically spread out my spend on the U$B and Am3x cards, purchasing one ~480-500 every 5-7 days, with regular spend sprinkled between. But in order to get up to 12-15k per month, I'd need to increase these purchases to every ~3rd day, or else purchase ~1000 at a time. Both of these make me a little nervous. Is it better to do something like 1000 once per week per card with a handful or normal purchases in between? Or is it better to do 500 twice per week per card with fewer purchases in between (potentially none)? If it makes a difference, most of my MS will be at grocery stores on the 2 non-biz cards. I have 4-5 local grocery that allow me to purchase the goods I want using CC.

And then for liquidating, I think if I add a single WM billpay per month to the U$B card for $2k, and slowly ramp-up the in-person MO deposits to maybe $1-2k per week, I would be able to fully liquidate without changing the mobile volumes.

Am I being too paranoid and overthinking things based on this volume? Thoughts / strategy / feedback here or PM appreciated

EDIT: for example as of today, it has been 5 days since I purchased a GC with the USB or Am3x card. Since I was doing the OD thing over the weekend, I haven't put any other transactions on the non-biz cards. So my paranoid self would like to wait several more days while I do some normal spend, then maybe late in the week or weekend I could finally make a purchase. But if I stick with that schedule, I'll never get above 2-3k per card per month. My non-paranoid self is thinking: hey, I don't have any VGCs to liquidate at the moment, nor do I have any MOs to deposit, so I should go out and buy something.

sponge_gto

No expert on MO etc. but judging from "|nk, US Bink flexparks, and Am3x Hiltin" the level of paranoia should be adequate.

Chelski

go big or go home.

ntjane66

What are you paranoid about? This is a hobby that is full of challanges and constantly examining the risk vs reward tradeoff. It is forever changing which require adjustments. I ask what are you paranoid about because there are various things that can go wrong. My advice is to start small and flip fast and build from there. Always stay within your comfort zone.

perkunas

I am worried about risk of shutdown with the CC issuers. My wife and I are both eligible for every major CC signup bonus aside from the few listed up thread and the Citi AA cards. We've never had CSR, CSP, Ink cash, none of the AmEx cards, etc etc. But we're thinking of buying a home in 2017 so part of MSing is to still earn points and miles without needing to open new CCs in advance of a potential mortgage app.

The bank accounts I use are basically all disposable so I don't care about them.

But back to the main question: if I'm "only" MSing 4k per month per card, does it really matter whether I do 1x1000 each week or 2x500, or 500/500 back-to-back on subsequent days?

I'm basically wondering if I'm worrying too much considering I'm barely doing 1/4th of each CL per month.

Also I read thru ~70 pages of the WF 5% thread last night, which really got me thinking about how much is too much. My guess is that I'm not really at any risk with my MS volume at the moment, but I came here for 2nd opinions.

Or another more succinct way of putting it: would 25-33% of CL of MS per month ever really be at risk of getting shut down or FR-ed?

knopfler

I've never had an issue with the amount of MO's that I purchase. I did get shutdown by Chase for depositing MO's into a Chase checking account (they shutdown the checking account, and all Chase credit cards a few weeks later).

Chelski

just maintain good credit and you shouldn't have to worry about mortgage app... I've opened many cards during purchase and refinancing.. no issues.. you may get a few questions but that's an easy explanation.. don't think too much.. I've done up to 10-12x CL on some cards and frequently do 3-5x CL on most cards

dethkultur

I'll give you a straight answer.

For your cards, staying under 50% of your credit limit will get you no negative attention, ever.

A Bank's behavior with MOs is hit and miss. Just have a back up liquidation plan if one closes on you. Nothing to do with you, but MOs are used for actual fraud, so sometime when they have a reason Banks will want to purge all the accounts where things look out of whack, no matter if you are doing fraud yourself or not. For them, it is just avoidance of potential problems. Same reason why some banks won't do business with payday lenders, or some CC processors won't do business with adult websites. Certain activity is higher cost to the bank because of chargebacks, investigations, subpoenas, orders to freeze funds, etc. MSers start flirting with the same indicators as that crowd, even though it is legal and legit. The frustrations, no matter how well you plan, are just part of the package. Be like a duck and let it slide off your back and move on.

madbrain

How many MO / $$$ did you deposit into your Chase checking before you were shutdown ?

joeaseer

It was most likely thousands of dollars in similar amounts that shared a pattern. Usually when people deposit checks, they are in varying amounts. With MS and MO's, the amounts tend to be close to the same to pay less fee's. It starts to look like structuring the higher amounts of MO's you deposit.

"Structuring, also known as smurfing in banking industry jargon, is the practice of executing financial transactions (such as the making of bank deposits) in a specific pattern calculated to avoid the creation of certain records and reports required by law" (Source: Wikipedia).

PaulMSN

Just build up slowly on each card and intersperse normal purchases, at least early on. Last year I was using around 30 CCs, and the ones I used most rarely had normal purchases, but they were all built up slowly. On some cards I paid off multiple times in a month, so I was doing multiple times the CL. Not one shutdown in three years of MSing.

Now that I'm retired and living out of the country I no longer MS except when I come back to the US for a visit, like right now. It's still working for me.

AlohaDaveKennedy

Yes, there is always risk. Accounts are reviewed based on random reviews, employee tips, incentive programs (to expand relationships), internal and external audits as well as automated analytics. That said, your risk is on the lower side.

sponge_gto

Everybody here knows what structuring is and it simply doesn't include MO deposits.

AlohaDaveKennedy

Meh - had a nice talk with the risk management officer at one of my CUs where I was depositing about $30k of MOs a month. She asked me to stop depositing MOs as it was tripping her analytical tool. So there can be links between MO deposit patterns and flagging of an account by analytical tools designed to detect structuring and ML activity. Also, tellers returning from AML classes or presentations can also trigger review of your account because of "suspicious activities" that look to them like structuring.

ChurningMan

Did you lose all your points?