Jan 25, 2015, 12:48 am
Last edit by: XP1
Please read the wiki before posting a question.
UPDATE: 08/21/2015
Lucky Rewards: 1% Personal;2% Business
TopCashBack: 1.5% Personal; 2.25% business (11/10 only)
BeFrugal: 2.25% personal & business
Simply Best Coupons: 1.5% personal & business
Ebates: 1%
USAA 1% Personal; 2% Business
For other cash back or airline portals, check here: http://www.cashbackmonitor.com/Cashb...erican+express
Public Service Announcement: Do NOT use fee-free codes or free shipping codes if you want portal cashback / miles. CB/Miles will post and then be clawed back.
As of 1/29 most portals have added new terms that denominations over $2000 are not eligible for cashback.
As of 8/21/15 many portals have added new terms that denominations over $200 are not eligible for cashback. As smart as we all are we have no idea if this will be enforced on PERSONALIZED (Keyword: Personalized) orders. It has been CONFIRMED that they will NOT pay out on non-personalized orders.
FAQ
Will it post as a cash advance (CA)?
Citi AA Visa/Amex posted as purchase (7/2015)
Citi Dividend Amex posted as purchase (01/09/2016)
Citi Double Cash posted as purchase (7/8/2015, 8/11/2015)
Citi Exec posted as purchase
Citi HHonors posted as purchase (2/17/15, 5/4/15)
Citi Prestige posted as purchase (5/20/15)
Citi Thank You Premier posted as purchase (7/2015)
Cards from Chase, BoA, FIA, Barclay, AMEX, CapitalOne, US Bank, Discover, HSBC, etc., have posted as purchase. PNC Visa Cashbuilder - posts as purchase but does not earn CC rewards
Note: Some issuers (Discover, US Bank, etc.) will decline the authorization if it exceeds your CA limit. This does NOT mean it will post as CA. It simply means you need to lower the purchase amount below your CA limit for authorization, but it ultimately posts as a purchase.
How do I set PIN on AMEX Gift Cards and use as debit to load Bluebird, buy MOs, etc.
You cannot set PIN or use them as debit to load Bluebird, buy MOs, etc. You can only use them as credit where AMEX is accepted.
How do I cash out AMEX Gift Cards?
Use manufactured spend techniques (buy Visa/MC GCs, AFT, etc.) or normal spend where AMEX is accepted.
Why buy AMEX Gift Cards then?
To reduce the cost of manufactured spend, to mask your manufactured spend (i.e unusual high spend at Target or CVS), earn additional cash back on spend, or meet minimum spend targets faster.
Next day shipping that isn't?
The next day shipping is from when they ship the cards to UPS, which can be as long as 10 days from the order submission if you order personalized cards (more recently this has been under a week). For next day shipping, you are notified late night (once your card finishes processing, see above) and the package arrive that same morning before 10:30AM in your area.
What is with the charge disappearing from my credit card?
Once the order is placed you will see a pending charge on your CC account. Quite often once the card ships this pending is removed but does not show as a charge. Don't panic (or celebrate) it will show up as a charge within a day or so.
Personalized GCs?
Either Biz or Personal GCs can be personalized with your name. This helps when shaky cashiers who demand to see your card are prevalent. These take approximately 4 biz days to arrive compared to the non personalized which arrives as quickly as the next day.
UPS Tracking?
If you logged in to your AMEX account when placing the order you can get tracking info by logging in to your AMEX account and clicking on cards > gift cards > order history > order details. Unfortunately tracking information may not appear until well after your order has shipped so it's best to sign up for UPS My Choice http://www.ups.com/mychoice/ to get faster tracking info and reroute your package if needed. Since UPS may drop your package off at the door if you're not home, it will be useful to know when your package will arrive.
Do I have to sign for the package?
Rule of thumb, YMMV:
- Non-personalized orders $4k or less will just be left at your door.
- Non-personalized orders $5k or greater must be signed for in person. These cannot be routed to a UPS store or customer center for pickup. UPS will attempt a delivery 3 consecutive business days. If you are not available to sign for the package, it will be returned to Amex.
- Personalized orders of any amount will just be left at your door. These orders can be routed to a UPS store or customer center for pickup.
The portal terms indicate that coupon codes will invalidate cash back. Is this true?
Yes (as of July 2014)
What are the purchase limits? (Updated June 2015)
Regular
100K personal every 14 days (Portals still state 10K personal every 14 days, however confirmations by FT'ers suggest this is not enforced).
100K business every 14 days
Personalized/Custom
5K personal per order
75K business per order
Portal Limits
Most CB portals state that they only payout out on cards worth $2,000 or less. In other words, if you buy a $3,000 card you will not get cash back from the portals (per their terms). You may buy multiple $2,000 cards in a single order and be fine. Several people have reported success buying up to $2999 per card, but YMMV.
Do declined orders count toward the purchase limits?
YMMV
Do fees and shipping count toward the purchase limits?
No
Why was my purchase declined by AMEX?
There are several possibilities:
- Your billing address does not match 100% with what the credit card company has on file. This could be anything from apt/suite/condo # on the wrong line to zip code requiring 9 digits instead of 5. If your first purchase does not go through, call your bank or login to your acct to verify that this matches what you used.
- You have gone over the $10k every 14 day limit on personal gift card purchase. (This limit may no longer apply as of April 2015)
- Even if you are sure the first two are correct as you have ordered before on that card and it's been more than 14 days, you might still get declined. No one has any idea why.
- You placed a business order and you don't really have a business (at some point AMEX does a background check for a valid business) or you have exceeded the 14 day limit for business orders.
- You don't have enough longevity ordering AMEX gift cards. Some have noticed a much higher decline rate the first year (2013) even with all information correct, compared to two years later, 2015, if ordering regularly (several orders monthly). (added 7/5/15)
My order was declined but my credit card still shows a pending authorization. How long until this falls off and my credit line is freed up?
I typically takes 1 week for the pending authorization to fall off after a declined order.
Can I order from the business side using a personal card? Or does it need to be a business card?
You can use whatever credit card you want to pay for business or personal orders. About the only restriction is you can't use an AMEX GC to buy another AMEX GC.
How long will it take the portal to track my order and confirm the pending cash back or points?
For non-Cartera portals (TCB, BC, Befrugal, etc) your order will usually track within a day or two.
For Cartera portals (Barclay Reward Boost, Lucky Rewards, USAA, Alaska, Delta) it will take 3-4 weeks to track.
My orders are not tracking. How can I maximize the chances the portal will track my order properly?
Use a browser you do not normally use (Chrome, Firefox, Opera), reset all browser settings to defaults, clear all browser cookies, disable all browser add-ons, and close/re-start your browser before navigating to the portal and placing your order. Do NOT use promotional coupon codes. The vast majority of tracking issues result from use of coupon codes, a bad browser cookie, improperly configured browser settings, or add-ons that interfere with cookie tracking.
Can I load Serve/RB/BB with an AGC?
No. AGCs process as credit. They do not function like a VGC w/debit.
Why am I getting 1.5% instead of 2.25%?
Be sure you're clicking through and buying the business version. The consumer one pays 1.5%.
This thread is a continuation of http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manuf...s-etc-648.html
UPDATE: 08/21/2015
Lucky Rewards: 1% Personal;
TopCashBack: 1.5% Personal; 2.25% business (11/10 only)
BeFrugal: 2.25% personal & business
Simply Best Coupons: 1.5% personal & business
Ebates: 1%
USAA 1% Personal; 2% Business
For other cash back or airline portals, check here: http://www.cashbackmonitor.com/Cashb...erican+express
Public Service Announcement: Do NOT use fee-free codes or free shipping codes if you want portal cashback / miles. CB/Miles will post and then be clawed back.
As of 1/29 most portals have added new terms that denominations over $2000 are not eligible for cashback.
As of 8/21/15 many portals have added new terms that denominations over $200 are not eligible for cashback. As smart as we all are we have no idea if this will be enforced on PERSONALIZED (Keyword: Personalized) orders. It has been CONFIRMED that they will NOT pay out on non-personalized orders.
FAQ
Will it post as a cash advance (CA)?
Citi AA Visa/Amex posted as purchase (7/2015)
Citi Dividend Amex posted as purchase (01/09/2016)
Citi Double Cash posted as purchase (7/8/2015, 8/11/2015)
Citi Exec posted as purchase
Citi HHonors posted as purchase (2/17/15, 5/4/15)
Citi Prestige posted as purchase (5/20/15)
Citi Thank You Premier posted as purchase (7/2015)
Cards from Chase, BoA, FIA, Barclay, AMEX, CapitalOne, US Bank, Discover, HSBC, etc., have posted as purchase. PNC Visa Cashbuilder - posts as purchase but does not earn CC rewards
Note: Some issuers (Discover, US Bank, etc.) will decline the authorization if it exceeds your CA limit. This does NOT mean it will post as CA. It simply means you need to lower the purchase amount below your CA limit for authorization, but it ultimately posts as a purchase.
How do I set PIN on AMEX Gift Cards and use as debit to load Bluebird, buy MOs, etc.
You cannot set PIN or use them as debit to load Bluebird, buy MOs, etc. You can only use them as credit where AMEX is accepted.
How do I cash out AMEX Gift Cards?
Use manufactured spend techniques (buy Visa/MC GCs, AFT, etc.) or normal spend where AMEX is accepted.
Why buy AMEX Gift Cards then?
To reduce the cost of manufactured spend, to mask your manufactured spend (i.e unusual high spend at Target or CVS), earn additional cash back on spend, or meet minimum spend targets faster.
Next day shipping that isn't?
The next day shipping is from when they ship the cards to UPS, which can be as long as 10 days from the order submission if you order personalized cards (more recently this has been under a week). For next day shipping, you are notified late night (once your card finishes processing, see above) and the package arrive that same morning before 10:30AM in your area.
What is with the charge disappearing from my credit card?
Once the order is placed you will see a pending charge on your CC account. Quite often once the card ships this pending is removed but does not show as a charge. Don't panic (or celebrate) it will show up as a charge within a day or so.
Personalized GCs?
Either Biz or Personal GCs can be personalized with your name. This helps when shaky cashiers who demand to see your card are prevalent. These take approximately 4 biz days to arrive compared to the non personalized which arrives as quickly as the next day.
UPS Tracking?
If you logged in to your AMEX account when placing the order you can get tracking info by logging in to your AMEX account and clicking on cards > gift cards > order history > order details. Unfortunately tracking information may not appear until well after your order has shipped so it's best to sign up for UPS My Choice http://www.ups.com/mychoice/ to get faster tracking info and reroute your package if needed. Since UPS may drop your package off at the door if you're not home, it will be useful to know when your package will arrive.
Do I have to sign for the package?
Rule of thumb, YMMV:
- Non-personalized orders $4k or less will just be left at your door.
- Non-personalized orders $5k or greater must be signed for in person. These cannot be routed to a UPS store or customer center for pickup. UPS will attempt a delivery 3 consecutive business days. If you are not available to sign for the package, it will be returned to Amex.
- Personalized orders of any amount will just be left at your door. These orders can be routed to a UPS store or customer center for pickup.
The portal terms indicate that coupon codes will invalidate cash back. Is this true?
Yes (as of July 2014)
What are the purchase limits? (Updated June 2015)
Regular
100K personal every 14 days (Portals still state 10K personal every 14 days, however confirmations by FT'ers suggest this is not enforced).
100K business every 14 days
Personalized/Custom
5K personal per order
75K business per order
Portal Limits
Most CB portals state that they only payout out on cards worth $2,000 or less. In other words, if you buy a $3,000 card you will not get cash back from the portals (per their terms). You may buy multiple $2,000 cards in a single order and be fine. Several people have reported success buying up to $2999 per card, but YMMV.
Do declined orders count toward the purchase limits?
YMMV
Do fees and shipping count toward the purchase limits?
No
Why was my purchase declined by AMEX?
There are several possibilities:
- Your billing address does not match 100% with what the credit card company has on file. This could be anything from apt/suite/condo # on the wrong line to zip code requiring 9 digits instead of 5. If your first purchase does not go through, call your bank or login to your acct to verify that this matches what you used.
- You have gone over the $10k every 14 day limit on personal gift card purchase. (This limit may no longer apply as of April 2015)
- Even if you are sure the first two are correct as you have ordered before on that card and it's been more than 14 days, you might still get declined. No one has any idea why.
- You placed a business order and you don't really have a business (at some point AMEX does a background check for a valid business) or you have exceeded the 14 day limit for business orders.
- You don't have enough longevity ordering AMEX gift cards. Some have noticed a much higher decline rate the first year (2013) even with all information correct, compared to two years later, 2015, if ordering regularly (several orders monthly). (added 7/5/15)
My order was declined but my credit card still shows a pending authorization. How long until this falls off and my credit line is freed up?
I typically takes 1 week for the pending authorization to fall off after a declined order.
Can I order from the business side using a personal card? Or does it need to be a business card?
You can use whatever credit card you want to pay for business or personal orders. About the only restriction is you can't use an AMEX GC to buy another AMEX GC.
How long will it take the portal to track my order and confirm the pending cash back or points?
For non-Cartera portals (TCB, BC, Befrugal, etc) your order will usually track within a day or two.
For Cartera portals (Barclay Reward Boost, Lucky Rewards, USAA, Alaska, Delta) it will take 3-4 weeks to track.
My orders are not tracking. How can I maximize the chances the portal will track my order properly?
Use a browser you do not normally use (Chrome, Firefox, Opera), reset all browser settings to defaults, clear all browser cookies, disable all browser add-ons, and close/re-start your browser before navigating to the portal and placing your order. Do NOT use promotional coupon codes. The vast majority of tracking issues result from use of coupon codes, a bad browser cookie, improperly configured browser settings, or add-ons that interfere with cookie tracking.
Can I load Serve/RB/BB with an AGC?
No. AGCs process as credit. They do not function like a VGC w/debit.
Why am I getting 1.5% instead of 2.25%?
Be sure you're clicking through and buying the business version. The consumer one pays 1.5%.
This thread is a continuation of http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manuf...s-etc-648.html
Cashback on Amex GC through TopCashBack, BigCrumbs, etc. (2015)
Aug 30, 2015, 12:56 am
#3646
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The Phoenix Desert
Programs: Hilton Cubic Zirconia, Marriott Fools Gold
Posts: 1,692
Aug 30, 2015, 1:52 am
#3647
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, IHG Spire, Marriott Silver, Hyatt Platinum, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 308
AGCs payouts were high enough that it was worth buying truckloads and liquidating them by paying the fees the various liquidators asked for. I remember it getting as high as 4.5%....
In terms of how Amex makes profits...the cash-equivalent gift card industry does have decent breakage. Plus, they are, in a way, earning interest on the money you've provided them as you drain the card.
In terms of how Amex makes profits...the cash-equivalent gift card industry does have decent breakage. Plus, they are, in a way, earning interest on the money you've provided them as you drain the card.
Aug 30, 2015, 8:36 am
#3648
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: LAX
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, Wyndham Diamond, DL PM, Marriott Platinum, IHG Platinum
Posts: 1,305
Yep! This is good information, thank you. I always knew the large chains got better CC rates than smaller businesses, but never had any real (ballpark, at least) numbers to back that up. I also read the various articles about the Costco thing a few months ago and that was helpful to extrapolate from, but of course Costco gets better CC rates than anyone because of their combination of exclusivity and volume.
It's hard to say. Either way though, after adjusting the AGC swipe fee variable (the 3% I used was extremely optimistic, as I said, and mostly to prove that the numbers would never work) to a more realistic 1.5% or so, any CC swipe fee makes this unprofitable for Amex.
(So then the question is, why has Amex kept this going for so long if it's unprofitable? Who knows.)
(So then the question is, why has Amex kept this going for so long if it's unprofitable? Who knows.)
That's a question that has been boggling my mind pretty much since I got into it. Part of the problem is that we only have some idea of costs involved.
Not just Amex, but there are five or six players involved here and for each player, it makes little sense why they would do this: Amex, Target, WMT, CVS, grocery stores issuing MOs, other credit card issuers who treat AGCs as purchase transactions and give you reward points, and Incomm.
Assuming what we think about costs is remotely true, the only player that clearly benefits is Target/WMT. My thinking is that most of the costs of pin enabled debit card loads is picked up by Amex or it is very low even though the VGCs are issued by exempt issuers. So, what does Target get? Foot traffic and people like me who had never been to a Target in five years, now making close to $2,000 purchases (including optics, pharmacy, etc.) in the last nine months. At 33% gross margins, Target has already made more than $650 from getting people like me. Also, anecdotally, I have seen five legitimate Redbird users -- those loading with cash -- for two possible MSers during good old credit card days. So, that's the added benefit for Target.
CVS: I can't put my head around this. Assuming CVS pays just over 1% -- say 1.25% for Amex transactions and 1% for Visa and MC, they are still losing money on $500 GCs. Keep in mind that the $5 fee they charge, some of it is kept by Incomm. So, is Visa subsidizing VGCs i.e. selling $500 GCs at a discount or are people purchasing legitimate GCs for a lower amount and net net, CVS is breaking even to making money and like Amex, they benefit from foot traffic? I don't know, but we also know that CVS is not stupid!
Grocery stores and USPS: I have been trying to get info into how much do these guys have to pay from pin enabled transactions on prepaid visa GCs and haven't been successful yet. I will keep at it and hopefully should have a ballpark. For a regular pin enabled debit transaction issued by non-exempt banks (those with more than $10 billion in assets), you are looking at just around 50 cents for $500, so $1.25 fee from USPS makes sense.
Visa: Are they subsidizing this entire thing to gain market share in debit cards? MC has a massive share in debit card transactions right now, while Visa leads in credit cards.
Other card issuers (Chase/Citi/BAC/Barclays): These players could easily treat AGC purchase as cash advance but maybe AGCs are just not big enough for them in the big scheme of things.
Amex: Like Target, I actually think Amex benefits a lot at a certain price/loss. For one, between 2012-2014, Amex was #2 to Green Dot in prepaid cards. My thinking is they are #1 right now, but I don't having official numbers yet.
Second: More Amex transactions for them when people legitimately use RB/BB/Serve.
Third: Data, data, and more data! For those concerned about Google knowing too much or the recent hacks at other Websites, should probably not have a RB or BB account. Amex now not only knows your exact spending habits (rent payments, mortgage payments, which specific credit cards you have, so not just Chase but whether you have Chase or United cards, utility bills, etc.) but they also have all the account numbers!!!!!!!!!!! How much price would a company pay to get this info to improve their target marketing, etc.
Fourth: Amex has way more control than we think. Just imagine the decline in MSing because of lower AGC cash backs. They could reduce the daily load to $1,000 on RB and have a monthly fee and make this entire chain (AGC, RB and Amex) very profitable, gain market share and have more data on you.
Absolutely brilliant!
Currently, they are trying out various permutation and combos to see what works for them and Target.
Also, they are constantly working on improving their RB product. Their Website layout has improved recently, which makes me think they are somewhat serious about being in this game longer term. We will see.
And my final thought: While we think we are the smartest players in the MS game as we benefit, we could be just pawns!!
Last edited by jediwho; Aug 30, 2015 at 11:47 am
Aug 30, 2015, 1:06 pm
#3649
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 274
for all the stores (CVS, Walgreen and etc), I bet the giftcardmall/blackhawk must put a display cost, such like consignment cost to leave their giftcards rack on these stores. Or, commission basis by giving back a percentage when a card is sold.
there is no way that the stores are losing money by selling these cards.
of course, to avoid costly fraud, they are putting limit.
if CVS losing money, they will completely drop the purchase of these cards with CC completely, not $2000/day limit.
And I just remember, I just went to my local post office. They have a full rack of giftcard stands now. Visa, Amex, Ebay and etc. I just dont know what card to use at post office. And, there is no way USPS will come out negative with these giftcards/credit cards rack.
thats my 2 cents.
there is no way that the stores are losing money by selling these cards.
of course, to avoid costly fraud, they are putting limit.
if CVS losing money, they will completely drop the purchase of these cards with CC completely, not $2000/day limit.
And I just remember, I just went to my local post office. They have a full rack of giftcard stands now. Visa, Amex, Ebay and etc. I just dont know what card to use at post office. And, there is no way USPS will come out negative with these giftcards/credit cards rack.
thats my 2 cents.
Aug 30, 2015, 4:34 pm
#3650
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: AZ
Posts: 250
Assuming what we think about costs is remotely true, the only player that clearly benefits is Target/WMT. My thinking is that most of the costs of pin enabled debit card loads is picked up by Amex or it is very low even though the VGCs are issued by exempt issuers. So, what does Target get? Foot traffic and people like me who had never been to a Target in five years, now making close to $2,000 purchases (including optics, pharmacy, etc.) in the last nine months. At 33% gross margins, Target has already made more than $650 from getting people like me. Also, anecdotally, I have seen five legitimate Redbird users -- those loading with cash -- for two possible MSers during good old credit card days. So, that's the added benefit for Target.
CVS: I can't put my head around this. Assuming CVS pays just over 1% -- say 1.25% for Amex transactions and 1% for Visa and MC, they are still losing money on $500 GCs. Keep in mind that the $5 fee they charge, some of it is kept by Incomm. So, is Visa subsidizing VGCs i.e. selling $500 GCs at a discount or are people purchasing legitimate GCs for a lower amount and net net, CVS is breaking even to making money and like Amex, they benefit from foot traffic? I don't know, but we also know that CVS is not stupid!
My opinion is InComm subsidizes this. Remember that Visa transactions usually have a fixed transaction fee in addition to the percentage amount. The calculation may be that, on average, a $500 VGC will have X number of transactions where they'll collect the fixed fee in addition to the percentage. Of course, MSers bring this down since we usually liquidate in a single transaction and use debit. Most normal users probably run them as credit, which generates higher fees. There is also the breakage expectation, but MSers usually fully drain the cards. If CVS was losing money on these transactions, I think they'd either implement different limits (for example, no CC purchases of GCs over a certain amount) or work with InComm to create a new OV SKU with lower limits (they're large enough to do that).
For InComm, another potential revenue source is conversions to MyVanilla, which has several fees. (This of course will only appeal to the actual "underbanked" crowd these prepaid products are intended for, not us.)
Since no value is being created as a result of MS, it's obvious that someone is losing out in this chain; I just have a hard time believing it's CVS. I'd believe it's the CC issuers (the V/MC CC issuers are definitely not making 2% on our transactions, so Barclays, Citi, Cap1, etc. with their 2% cards are losing money on this) and GC vendors (InComm, GCM, etc., not the retail stores).
Fourth: Amex has way more control than we think. Just imagine the decline in MSing because of lower AGC cash backs. They could reduce the daily load to $1,000 on RB and have a monthly fee and make this entire chain (AGC, RB and Amex) very profitable, gain market share and have more data on you.
Really enjoying this discussion BTW. It's nice to have an informed discussion of the economics and players behind MS, instead of the usual "they can afford to give us 1,000,000% cashback!".
Aug 30, 2015, 5:18 pm
#3652
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Midwest U.S.A
Programs: Too many to list. Since the early 90's.
Posts: 1,407
BTW, retailers get a hefty amount to stock GCs on their shelves/racks. And, they usually get the same amount from the vendor even when the product goes on sale since most GC sales are conducted by the vendor. The retailer sacrifices nothing during the sale, except they might choose to advertise the deal and sometimes that only happens when the vendor pays coop on the ad in their weekly mailer.
Furthermore, Amex is banking on the prepaid/gift card side of things to bring them more profit and its working as they continue to expand (not paying attention to this temporary hiatus for portals). It's a 6 billion + annual business for them and growing.
Furthermore, Amex is banking on the prepaid/gift card side of things to bring them more profit and its working as they continue to expand (not paying attention to this temporary hiatus for portals). It's a 6 billion + annual business for them and growing.
Aug 30, 2015, 9:27 pm
#3653
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: California
Programs: AA UA
Posts: 151
I used to have a plastic shoebox just for those rebate and gift AGC/VGC. Many of them ended up expiring eventually, especially the AGCs. Luckily I've learnt to add those to my Amazon GC. Once I even added $0.13 to my Amazon account...
Aug 31, 2015, 2:41 am
#3654
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: LAX
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, Wyndham Diamond, DL PM, Marriott Platinum, IHG Platinum
Posts: 1,305
I agree with that - with the reduced debit fees, Target and Walmart are likely winning out. The new Serve reload fees also might suggest Amex is paying for the reloads. (We could have assumed something like that in the past, as Target and Walmart probably aren't going to do something like this out of the goodness of their hearts - but it's possible they considered foot traffic to be sufficient remuneration.)
The genuine users of RB/BB are far higher than MSers. Amex has the data to know how much to charge for reload fees or monthly fee to make this viable.
My thinking is we could see dedicate load machines popping up at target. And Amex could be developing technology to scale the Serve/RB platform to small and medium sized companies. So, you could have a dedicated load cards from a much smaller retailers like WFM, 7-11 or Trader Joe's, for instance. This could be over the next five years.
Amex could be going for the kill here and RB/BB is just the start. The same company that led has the highest transaction fees could be the one with the lowest if Prepaid takes off.
I've thought about this as well. CVS in my opinion is one of the more sophisticated gift card sellers (from what I can tell they've had in-house staff negotiating their GC deals, instead of just sticking a GCM rack in the store and letting GCM handle everything). I'd have a really hard time believing CVS loses money.
My opinion is InComm subsidizes this. Remember that Visa transactions usually have a fixed transaction fee in addition to the percentage amount. The calculation may be that, on average, a $500 VGC will have X number of transactions where they'll collect the fixed fee in addition to the percentage. Of course, MSers bring this down since we usually liquidate in a single transaction and use debit. Most normal users probably run them as credit, which generates higher fees. There is also the breakage expectation, but MSers usually fully drain the cards. If CVS was losing money on these transactions, I think they'd either implement different limits (for example, no CC purchases of GCs over a certain amount) or work with InComm to create a new OV SKU with lower limits (they're large enough to do that).
For InComm, another potential revenue source is conversions to MyVanilla, which has several fees. (This of course will only appeal to the actual "underbanked" crowd these prepaid products are intended for, not us.)
My opinion is InComm subsidizes this. Remember that Visa transactions usually have a fixed transaction fee in addition to the percentage amount. The calculation may be that, on average, a $500 VGC will have X number of transactions where they'll collect the fixed fee in addition to the percentage. Of course, MSers bring this down since we usually liquidate in a single transaction and use debit. Most normal users probably run them as credit, which generates higher fees. There is also the breakage expectation, but MSers usually fully drain the cards. If CVS was losing money on these transactions, I think they'd either implement different limits (for example, no CC purchases of GCs over a certain amount) or work with InComm to create a new OV SKU with lower limits (they're large enough to do that).
For InComm, another potential revenue source is conversions to MyVanilla, which has several fees. (This of course will only appeal to the actual "underbanked" crowd these prepaid products are intended for, not us.)
Since no value is being created as a result of MS, it's obvious that someone is losing out in this chain; I just have a hard time believing it's CVS. I'd believe it's the CC issuers (the V/MC CC issuers are definitely not making 2% on our transactions, so Barclays, Citi, Cap1, etc. with their 2% cards are losing money on this) and GC vendors (InComm, GCM, etc., not the retail stores).
Part of the problem is the opacity of the frequent flyer programs. Both airlines and hotels are very unique sectors. They have three factors in common: both cannot keep inventory, they have low variable cost and very high fixed costs and premium experience that costs little commands great customer loyalty.
While airlines would love to fill every seat at variable cost plus some profit (usually under 1 cent a mile) and hotels could rent out rooms at $20 and still have some money left to pay for fixed costs, they won't do it because it disrupts their pricing.
Hence, these reward programs are nothing but a way to get rid of inventory.....have 90% load factor with 15% filled by rewards and thus giving companies the ability to charge higher prices those who purchase the tickets or rent out rooms!
In a way, one could easily argue that the main loser here are the ones who are not optimizing the rewards program and the non MSers!
They could, but I wonder if there would be other problems with that. The intended use of these GCs is not to MS. Would regulators have a problem with banks charging cash advance fees when the typical customer is just trying to buy a birthday gift and has no idea why this is a cash advance? I know Citi was doing it at a certain point, but they've stopped.
Same here.
Aug 31, 2015, 11:54 am
#3655
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: California
Programs: AA UA
Posts: 151
I'm behind on FT reading, especially this thread since I haven't done much with AGC except using it to meet small minimum spending once or twice (?). But did someone mention last year the portal cashback came back around the end of September like around 9/30/2014?
It makes sense to me since the last quarter should be the highest GC selling quarter for gift/bonus giving. If Amex does not promote it, buyers would just get VGC/MGC instead. Or maybe I got this wrong as well (won't be the first thing I got wrong ;-)
It makes sense to me since the last quarter should be the highest GC selling quarter for gift/bonus giving. If Amex does not promote it, buyers would just get VGC/MGC instead. Or maybe I got this wrong as well (won't be the first thing I got wrong ;-)
Aug 31, 2015, 11:59 am
#3656
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Programs: AA EXP; Marriott Lifetime / Annual Titanium; Massively Missing Starwood
Posts: 5,337
I'm behind on FT reading, especially this thread since I haven't done much with AGC except using it to meet small minimum spending once or twice (?). But did someone mention last year the portal cashback came back around the end of September like around 9/30/2014?
It makes sense to me since the last quarter should be the highest GC selling quarter for gift/bonus giving. If Amex does not promote it, buyers would just get VGC/MGC instead. Or maybe I got this wrong as well (won't be the first thing I got wrong ;-)
It makes sense to me since the last quarter should be the highest GC selling quarter for gift/bonus giving. If Amex does not promote it, buyers would just get VGC/MGC instead. Or maybe I got this wrong as well (won't be the first thing I got wrong ;-)
Sep 1, 2015, 7:26 am
#3657
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Champaign, IL
Programs: Total Rewards Diamond, Wyndham Diamond, Marriott Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 564
I made a Ebates AGC purchase on 8/23 when the CB was listed at 1%. I think a few days later they changed the T&C's. Yesterday I filed a claim for missing CB (Not tracking). Late last night they responded and said that my CB claim was approved and it is now tracking in my Ebates account.
I ordered 1 personalized consumer GC in the amount of $2000.
I ordered 1 personalized consumer GC in the amount of $2000.
Sep 1, 2015, 11:29 am
#3659
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Programs: Marriott Platinum Premier, UA 1K
Posts: 375
Has it it been confirmed that portals are still good for personalized cards? I ordered business personalized from TCB and SBC after terms changed and they are tracking still..a good sign...but until paid, I can't confirm.
Sep 1, 2015, 12:46 pm
#3660
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Champaign, IL
Programs: Total Rewards Diamond, Wyndham Diamond, Marriott Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 564
Extrabux still shows 1% for cards up to $2000. I placed two orders for multiple $2K cards and both are tracking.
Has it it been confirmed that portals are still good for personalized cards? I ordered business personalized from TCB and SBC after terms changed and they are tracking still..a good sign...but until paid, I can't confirm.
Has it it been confirmed that portals are still good for personalized cards? I ordered business personalized from TCB and SBC after terms changed and they are tracking still..a good sign...but until paid, I can't confirm.