Manufactured spending = wire fraud ?
Aug 18, 2013, 12:21 pm
#31
Moderator: Travel Buzz
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 3,099
Many people on this board are actively commuting fraud, but it would be difficult to prove and closing someone's account is the easier solution.
I've found the truth works well. "Why do you buy so many if these cards?" "I get a ton of points from my credit card for free trips". Seem easy enough to me.
I've found the truth works well. "Why do you buy so many if these cards?" "I get a ton of points from my credit card for free trips". Seem easy enough to me.
I agree that the truth is good enough... I want points, points and more points. I just think that flying under the radar is the best way. If you can keep from having to answer any questions, you won't have any 'splaining to do, as Ricky Ricardo would say to Lucy. That's why I prefer chat sessions to phone calls, etc. If you tell the credit card company that you are "getting this third card simply to get more airline points"... you will get denied! So if you have any other reasons for applying... such as "I'm trying to separate spend categories" or "blue cards look great with my black wallet"... you might consider "slanting" your story.
Aug 18, 2013, 12:57 pm
#32
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Perhaps this will help with your confusion. Note that I'm not suggesting there is any real risk of legal action for 99.99% of us. But Flyertalk seems to have many people who see no issue with making false statements. I don't believe there is anything wrong with pushing the points game, but when adverse actions happen and someone asks for suggestions I see many people suggesting creative stories to tell. Once you start making stuff up any lying I think you are going down a slippery slope. Again, not an issue for most of us, even the ones advising people to lie, but you can't commit just a little fraud. Its like being a little pregnant. If the speed limit is 55 and you are going 56 you are technically speeding - you aren't going to get a ticket but that doesn't make it legal to drive 56 in a 55. Maybe you can go 58 or 60 or 65 - at some point it gets the highway patrol to put down the donut and give you a ticket. I've never received a ticket for going 5 miles over the speed limit. I don't know anyone who has so I feel comfortable doing it. Each person has their comfort zone. Also, I don't get upset when I get speeding tickets for 20 over the posted limit. I know I was going to fast and I pay the fine.
From the free legal dictionary:
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
From the free legal dictionary:
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
18 U.S.C. Sec. 3143
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
Aug 18, 2013, 2:03 pm
#33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 866
Manufactured spending = wired fraud ?
I think that definition while more detailed leads to the same conclusion. Don't lie.
Easy solution, don't "devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises"
Easy solution, don't "devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises"
Aug 18, 2013, 3:05 pm
#34
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego
Programs: UA Lifetime PE, Hilton Dia, WN CP, Hyatt Plat
Posts: 293
I am not a lawyer but I believe the MS I am doing is not even close to fraud. I buy stuff (cards) and pay for it. Personally, I don't lie about anything - even phone numbers and SS numbers are accurate.
Now with that said, it may be against the Terms of Service (TOS) of the credit card companies. But that is different. That is not fraud.
It reminds me of when The Horseshoe Casino banned me from their casino twenty five years ago. I was caught counting cards at Blackjack. It was not illegal but according to the casino, it violated their rules. I remember the two uniform guards escorting me to the front door while a guy in a suit read to me a statement that said among other things, ".......This is a private club and you are no longer invited to enter this club because you violated our rules......"
Now with that said, it may be against the Terms of Service (TOS) of the credit card companies. But that is different. That is not fraud.
It reminds me of when The Horseshoe Casino banned me from their casino twenty five years ago. I was caught counting cards at Blackjack. It was not illegal but according to the casino, it violated their rules. I remember the two uniform guards escorting me to the front door while a guy in a suit read to me a statement that said among other things, ".......This is a private club and you are no longer invited to enter this club because you violated our rules......"
Aug 18, 2013, 3:52 pm
#35
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 129
For something to be considered illegal, there needs to be a law against it. That being said, it is clearly against the TOS we sign when we become cardholders. They have the right to drop us as a customer if they believe that our purchases are being made solely for the intention of point accruement.
Aug 18, 2013, 3:59 pm
#36
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 866
I am not a lawyer but I believe the MS I am doing is not even close to fraud. I buy stuff (cards) and pay for it. Personally, I don't lie about anything - even phone numbers and SS numbers are accurate.
Now with that said, it may be against the Terms of Service (TOS) of the credit card companies. But that is different. That is not fraud.
It reminds me of when The Horseshoe Casino banned me from their casino twenty five years ago. I was caught counting cards at Blackjack. It was not illegal but according to the casino, it violated their rules. I remember the two uniform guards escorting me to the front door while a guy in a suit read to me a statement that said among other things, ".......This is a private club and you are no longer invited to enter this club because you violated our rules......"
Now with that said, it may be against the Terms of Service (TOS) of the credit card companies. But that is different. That is not fraud.
It reminds me of when The Horseshoe Casino banned me from their casino twenty five years ago. I was caught counting cards at Blackjack. It was not illegal but according to the casino, it violated their rules. I remember the two uniform guards escorting me to the front door while a guy in a suit read to me a statement that said among other things, ".......This is a private club and you are no longer invited to enter this club because you violated our rules......"
Aug 18, 2013, 5:07 pm
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
I could tell a cashier that I'm buying all the GCs to use on a trip to the Olympics where I'll compete in the decathlon. It would have no absolutely no effect on the legality of my purchase, but the cashier might think I'm delusional. Of course there's no need to lie in the first place, and I think your apparent belief that many of us are doing so is judgmental and is negatively influencing your reasoning here.
Aug 18, 2013, 7:49 pm
#38
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 866
Manufactured spending = wired fraud ?
I was thinking of some of the crazy stuff people tell the CC companies. Often in writing. Making up fake businesses is on the bubble but a fake tax return used to get a higher credit line?
I truly believe people know damn well when they cross the line and simple manufactured spend, even tens of thousands is not crossing the line.
I truly believe people know damn well when they cross the line and simple manufactured spend, even tens of thousands is not crossing the line.
Aug 18, 2013, 8:57 pm
#39
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
Arghhhhh!! Fake IDs, fake social security numbers, fake businesses and fake tax returns are NOT NECESSARY to cleanup in this game. Color inside the lines people! Don't do illegal activity, well unless it is the petty drug activity our President is encouraging.
Leave the illegal activity to the NSA and CIA! (As revealed in audits). Heck they were actually caught running drugs in the good old days.
Leave the illegal activity to the NSA and CIA! (As revealed in audits). Heck they were actually caught running drugs in the good old days.
I was thinking of some of the crazy stuff people tell the CC companies. Often in writing. Making up fake businesses is on the bubble but a fake tax return used to get a higher credit line?
I truly believe people know damn well when they cross the line and simple manufactured spend, even tens of thousands is not crossing the line.
I truly believe people know damn well when they cross the line and simple manufactured spend, even tens of thousands is not crossing the line.
Aug 19, 2013, 8:01 am
#40
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 400
I'd definitely not play the game. You'd get a double whammy, the cost of the GC plus the cash advance fee.
Aug 19, 2013, 3:51 pm
#41
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 269
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ion-of-us-law/
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Aug 19, 2013, 3:55 pm
#42
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego
Programs: UA Lifetime PE, Hilton Dia, WN CP, Hyatt Plat
Posts: 293
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ion-of-us-law/
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Aug 19, 2013, 4:19 pm
#43
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
"Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!" -- Denethor, Return of the King
Disclaimer: I am not a Gondorian and this is not Gondorian advice, should your mileage gathering business be overrun by Orcs, Nazguls, or worse, lawyers.
Disclaimer: I am not a Gondorian and this is not Gondorian advice, should your mileage gathering business be overrun by Orcs, Nazguls, or worse, lawyers.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ion-of-us-law/
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Aug 19, 2013, 6:14 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ion-of-us-law/
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
Violation of terms of service in this case has been deemed a criminal act by the court.
In any case, irrelevant to manufactured spending.
Aug 19, 2013, 6:33 pm
#45
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 970
The WS Banksters just fleeced a trillion and not one has gone to jail, yet you are worried about wire fraud for a few lousy points? 
I'm new to the idea of manufactured spending and love the potential benefits, but I have some concerns. Could someone with legal expertise offer their opinion. Could the case be made by a government agency that manufactured spending to gain credit card points be considered wire fraud or fraud of another sort to defraud the issuing credit card company of points? Ordinarily, most consumers won't have any attention being paid to them by an agency. But, if an agency wanted to prosecute someone for any reason whatsoever, could this be a prosecutable action?