Suspicious Activity Reports to the IRS when buying or depositing money orders.
 

I am sure this has been covered before, but I think it bears repeating.

I was at Walmart today buying money orders with my MVD and PP MC. I had bought 3 and was giving the clerk the amount of m/o #4 when she said "I'm going to need a bunch of info from you in order to complete the transaction". After a bit of back and forth, which included a lot of lines like "I can't tell you who I am reporting you to" and "I am not allowed to disclose the $ amount that triggers my report", I learned the following:

$3000 and over worth of money orders bought per day and they have to do a possible suspicious activity report. I know this because I saw the form that she was going to fill out. I am not sure if this is per store, or across the whole chain. I do know that the register prompted her to start the report process. I have bought about $12,000 worth of m/o over the last 30 days, so this may also have something to do with it. However, my last visit a few weeks back had me buying over $4,000 worth in one visit.

They ask for your name, address, dob, ssn, occupation, etc.

The write all of this down on a form that they keep in a binder for this purpose that anyone behind the counter can access. According to the form they are supposed to keep it on file for 5 years.

I was able to not buy the 4th m/o and avoid having the report taken, but you may not be so lucky, so keep the limits in mind.

You may say "I have nothing to hide, all of my money is legit and documented", but really why take the risk? I would not want to explain all of this to a bureaucrat from the IRS who may not get what we are doing. Not to mention that your info in a binder at Walmart is seems like a recipe for ID theft.

The interesting thing is that I have had to go through this process at the bank before when cashing checks for more than $10,000 in a single day, so I always kept that limit in mind. $3000 is a new one for me.

This exact same thing happened to my brother yesterday, however, the process was a little different. He went in the morning and purchased 2K and then 1K in the afternoon. He used two different cards, so I'm pretty sure the computer wouldn't know that the same person would be purchasing these money orders. The guy then asked for his ID and all sorts of information. Since I'm sure that the computer had no control on who to file an SAR for, I'm pretty sure the cashiers have some sort of control over this procedure.

fortunately I know for a fact that a report, internal or external was not filed for me, because when I declined the purchase of the last m/o, she didn't take my info.

Easy solution, go to different places and do it under 3K. Wal Mart isn't the only one who you can do it with. Most supermarkets (Kroger, Publix) have it.

So $3k triggers all the information that is needed to open credit in your name be placed in a binder behind the counter at Wal-Mart that ANY employee can access? Gee, I wonder what could go wrong?!

I work for a bank, and SARs are also reported when a customer tries to structure transactions that will avoid a SAR. For example, if someone wants to buy $3000 worth of MO and the cashier mentions a SAR will need to be filled out, then the customer says, "oh, just $2000 then".

This is standard practice for all banks. However, im not sure if this extends to walmart or other non-financial institutions.

IRS reporting?

I'm a little skeptical that the IRS would be the recipient of this kind of SAR. Other agencies, sure (FBI, DEA, maybe DHS), but I think the IRS already has it's hands full and doesn't need to be tracking money orders at WalMart. At least I hope not.

I buy all my WM MO's from the Money Center express station. No need to get real humans involved.

Isn't that only giving out $500 face value?

What happens if you tell them that you do not want to give your social security number to them? What can they do?

right... give someone your ss#, vs not giving them your ss#. I vote NOT!

I don't think SARs are submitted to the IRS, per se, but instead to the Department of the Treasury, to for possible money laundering.

There is an offense called structuring which is avoiding reporting thresholds by creating a large number of smaller transactions.

This.

One can always pay a card by multiple payments spread out a course of weeks before due dates - No way this can be classified "structuring" as cash can become available over time to pay bills.

It is sad that a Farmer Market Stand or some small businesses are caught up in this and lost tens of thousands of their proceeds from 100% legitimate business because of such.

Were you doing multiple MOs in one transaction, or a single MO for several thousand dollars?

If you're looking for some fun reading:

http://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infobas...al/OLM_023.htm

Structuring
 

The following is not legal advice, I do not represent you.

As a formal federal prosecutor, I can tell you that you should be really careful in this area. As noted above, Suspicious Activity Reports get generated when you make cash or cash-equivelent transactions ranging from $3000-$10,000. These reports go to various law-enforcement types who investigate them to varying degrees.

Generally they are looking for money laundering and structuring. Money laundering (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1956) basically involves monetary transactions in which the money was obtained illegally and you know it was obtained illegally and you are making the transaction in an attempt to further the illegal activity or conceal the source, nature, etc. of the funds.

Structuring (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324) involves making monetary transactions in an attempt to circumvent reporting requirements. The basic reporting requirement kicks in when moving more than $10,000 in cash in a day. Note that a report will be generated even if you do smaller transactions at multiple branches of a bank in one day that aggregate to over $10,000. The money in this case does not need to be from illegal conduct. The only requirement is that you are structuring transactions in order to avoid the reporting of the transactions.

If you are ever approached by law enforcement asking about transfers you made my Practical, Non-Legal, advice is to tell them unequivocally that you want to speak with a lawyer before answering any questions. The easiest way to prove your intent in structuring transactions was to avoid reporting requirements is for you to tell them that. Otherwise it is very difficult, although not impossible, to prove.

It is also generally a bad idea to go telling people on the Internet that you are structuring your transactions so that they are not reported. You would be surprised at how easily law enforcement can tie you to an account on a website.

If you ever take $10,000+ in cash on a flight, my further Practical, Non-Legal advice is to make sure you report it on the Customs form that asks you that question. It is not generally illegal to carry large amounts of money. However, if you lie on the form and they find out they WILL seize all of your money, and they may arrest you, and they could charge you with a federal crime.

Ike
The preceding is not legal advice, I do not represent you.

I'm a manager at a store that sells money orders. The IRS's requirements apply to all businesses and banks selling monetary instruments such as money orders or money wiring. The IRS rules are as follows for money orders:

Fill out a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report for the IRS) for money order purchases over $2000 that ARE SUSPICIOUS.

Fill out a SAR for ALL money order purchases over $3000 (irrelevant at my store as we have a company policy of a $2,000 limit for money orders)

Fill out a CTF (Currency Transaction Form for the Department of the Treasury) for ALL CASH transactions over $10,000

We are also trained to look out for people structuring purchases to get around the requirement, such as purchasing money orders in amounts close to but not exceeding the threshold, breaking the purchases into multiple transactions throughout the day or week, or having multiple people purchase smaller money orders.

All forms must be faxed to the appropriate places weekly. SARs go to the IRS.

The IRS is more concerned about cash transactions (because of money laundering), moreso than credit card transactions although most places will not accept credit cards as payment for money orders as money orders are a guaranteed instrument of payment, and credit cards are not. Some places such as the post office will accept debit cards, but the store I work for only accepts cash for money orders.

Refuse the sale, keep a photo of your face taken off of the security cameras, and use it to identify you to refuse all future sales (to you) of monetary instruments.

Spend 5 minutes in line...
 

at the place where I do my business, and I'll point out 5 or more people and situations that are far, far more sketchy than anything we FTers are up to...

IkeEsq- that'll be the best post on this subject for this year, next, and years to come. Excellent thoughts, thanks!

Is it a check cashing place or a bank?

I used to be a teller for one of the large Canadian banks and we had similar things about anti-money laundering and etc

I don't remember all the details anymore, having left the job maybe 6 years ago, but what I remember is similar to the US rules

- $10k cash in one transaction gets me an automated Large Cash Transaction Report to fill out (one customer won $10k from a casino and wanted to deposit the winnings ... kinda awkward to ask for their ID and stuff)

- as a best practice, when servicing a customer, I typically do a cursory look at their recent transactions. If they come in to, say, deposit $2k and I see that they've already deposited $8k cash in the past few days, that's also a sign I should do a LCTR

- we were also trained a bit on how to notice suspicious transactions and fill out a suspicious activity report. There were a few points of emphasis with the training modules:

- there is no min/max for filing a SAR
- we cannot let the customer know that we're filing a SAR (but we can for LCTRs) -- this probably explains why the OP got stonewalled a bit at walmart

Apologies if this is a newbie question, but what's the possible impact of having a SAR filed on you? If our transactions are perfectly legal, is there anything we need to be worried about?

No

I think I understand the limits and risks when purchasing MOs. But what about depositing them? Can I collect up say 5 or 6 MOs and deposit them in my bank without worry? How else are you guys liquidating MOs? PM is fine.

This holds true here in the US as well-- you really are not supposed to know when a SAR is filed against you.

Also: any excuses you give to explain why you're not doing anything illegal could just as easily be the excuses a real money launderer could use; ie: "I'm doing this for miles." So the financial institutions aren't just able to take your word for it. A fact of this game is that some of what we do shadows the path money launderers take. Sure they're maybe buying MO's with cash and not debit, but once the MO is purchased there's no way the bank knows how it was acquired.

Well, the government now has a document saying you did something suspicious. If you do lots of suspicious things or the things you do are very suspicious, perhaps a law enforcement type will investigate, perhaps they will subpoena credit reports, bank and credit card records. If things still look very suspicious perhaps they'll look through your trash or do a mail cover, try to trace money and see if income, assets, and purchases match. Maybe someone will knock on your door or if they have probable cause they'll search email accounts or come take all of your computers away for 8-20 months. If you ever come under investigation for fraud of some kind they'll look up the old SARS as additional evidence of something.

So, for most people, it makes little to no difference but for some it could lead to something to be concerned about. As I mentioned earlier, if asked by law enforcement, make clear that you want to speak to a lawyer before discussing anything about your financial transactions.

There is nothing illegal about having, buying, or depositing Money Orders. As long as you do not deposit them in a way and for the purpose of preventing the financial institution from filing a report, then there is nothing to worry about.

The initials "SAR" never mean anything good. :-\

I noticed that over the years, one particular bank I go to never fills out any reports or anything no matter how big my cash or check deposits are. I've done $50k, $30k, $20k, $10k cash deposits a couple times and also checks ranging in the same sizes. Are some banks excluded? This is a FCU. Also this bank allows you to have an account without a SS# and only a foreign passport, but my account has all my info...

> what's the possible impact of having a SAR filed on you?

Your life is scrutinized. Example #1: Eliot Spitzer

Last week when I paid a bill at Walmart for $5000, they logged my name in a book. Curiously, however, three weeks earlier, at the same Walmart, they did not log me when I tried to pay $9000.

It may have had to do with my being more insistent this time. The prior time, they had said the bill couldn't be paid. This time, I had pursued quite a few sources at WM, and ultimately got a call from someone in Bentonville (WM world HQ) telling me how to do it. When the clerk at the Money Center again said she couldn't, I escallated it to a manager who was eventually able to pay it using the technique given to me by WM HQ.

Of the many things I worry about in life, the IRS, FBI, or Secret Service leading me away in handcuffs is way way down the list.

I've never had a SAR filled out on me, but I keep my transactions under 3k

From what I have read most banks are set up to make CTRs electronically with no input at all from the cashier. All the cashier does is indicate the form of payment and the report goes electronically to the IRS.

I really don't see how you can know this.

Checks are not cash and CTR's don't require paperwork.

They don't do anything *that you see*. CTR's and SAR's are generally a combination of electronic info and back office staff discussing with front line staff. If the tellers are doing things correctly, you'll never know about a report like that. CTR's generally include info that your bank/credit union already have on you and you SAR's are never to be shared. If someone files a SAR on you, you're not allowed to be told.

A CTR is no big deal, that just means that you had over $X currency or monetary instruments (money orders). A SAR is no big deal *if* you're not doing anything illegal, which includes structuring. If you're specifically structuring your transactions to avoid a CTR, that is structuring. Don't do that. If you consistently do transactions right under the reporting threshhold then it's going to raise a red flag. If someone were to call you and ask you to explain the timing of your transactions and you have a legitimate answer other than "I didn't want a report filed" then you're probably fine. Don't do illegal things (intentionally avoiding reporting triggers is illegal) and you have no reason to worry.

The Walmart clerk in the OP pretty well screwed up every which way to Sunday. :p If they really are keeping all of that info in a binder at the desk then you should have a discussion with the manager about moving that info into a location that is properly secure so that the info will remain confidential. Not wanting your ID, address, DOB, SSN, and financial info stored in an open binder behind the Walmart service desk is a reasonable privacy concern.


For all of those saying that the reports go to the IRS, no they don't. They go to FinCEN which (like the IRS) is a part of the Department of the Treasury. They're part of the same department but are very different. The legal code is the Bank Secrecy Act.
http://www.fincen.gov/

In some jurisdictions it's illegal to tell the subject of an SAR that they are the subject of an SAR.

Can a foreign tourist buy a money order using their passport as ID? Just wondering if it's worthwhile to have my Aussie husband buy the money orders, make them out to me and I can deposit them in my account.

So there are jurisdictions where it is permissible? The answer is "NO" since there's only one jurisdiction that is of relevance.

I can see that there's a lot of misinformation being thrown around in this thread. A lot of Fters think they're experts. Quite amusing.

Sorry for trolling. :D