Suspicious Activity Reports to the IRS when buying or depositing money orders.
Apr 18, 2014, 3:23 pm
#751
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 434
Apr 18, 2014, 8:00 pm
#752
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamhead
Exactly. Banking operates much differently.
While AML is always at the forefront for everyone exposed to the laws, the amounts of money dealt with is much different.
I can push a button and write off $5k in my daily world in investment banking. No one blinks an eye at that - its normal. Total balance sheet is hundreds of billions of dollars. $5k is a drop in a very large ocean.
$5k to a Wal-Mart employee at a CS desk is a massive anomaly in his/her day.
This, I think, is the cause of a lot of our MS problems - the people we deal with at these stores don't necessarily realize that our profit margin is only a small percentage of face value, and that we're not really spending the money that we "spend" as it ultimately returns to us in a circle. What would you think of someone who came in and bought thousands in money orders or gift cards on a frequent basis if you knew nothing about MS? For me, the solution has been to tell them what I'm up to in enough detail for them to understand the true purpose of the transaction(s) I'm running at their store, and to realize that the vast majority of the funds from the MO I buy goes to pay the CCs that bought the GC, and not to rolling around in stacks of freshly laundered $100 bills. It may not make a difference from the standpoint of federal law or corporate policy what your profit margin is, but the store employees are human and it will change their attitude towards the whole situation.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, YMMV, etc. but I prefer this approach to trying to go under the radar or giving vague answers about paying bills and whatnot. I've been banned from one Walmart money center for several months now and since then I've been routinely buying five figure amounts with GC at another WM a few miles away that is night and day in terms of their reaction, though I do think I learned somewhat from my experience at the first WM. The difference is that at the first WM, they didn't believe me when I told them what was going on after being confronted by a supervisor, who decided I was a money launderer (and probably filed a SAR), while the second WM was better able to grasp the concept of how moving one's own funds in a circle could be a profitable activity with the right credit cards. At the second WM, the cashiers are quite friendly now and seem to want to help me out rather than figure out a way to get me shut down and making up new and more restrictive rules. I keep the cashiers' bosses happy by giving them my DL and SSN with each purchase so they can fill out the MIL forms and have a huge folder somewhere with a list of all the MO I've bought there in the last 5 years. I'm not crazy about the thought of that, but I feel it's a reasonable price to pay. With the frequency we are treated as criminals, it's really nice to have stores where they know and trust you, quite aside from the efficiency gains that result from the ability to do larger transactions. The first WM, where I am banned from the MC, is closer to where I live, but I make a point of not shopping there at all anymore and taking all my business to the Walmart where I buy MO by way of a small repayment for all the CC rewards they have helped me earn. Stores that sell MO don't make money on them, they do it as a convenience so that you can get everything you need there and will therefore shop at their store and buy things that they do make money on. So to make that a worthwhile investment for WM, I buy whatever I need and can get at a competitive price while I'm there buying MO. AFAIK no one who works at the money center has any idea whether I buy anything other than MO, and it's not like I spend a huge amount or anything, but I'm satisfied knowing that I'm voting with my dollars.
This strategy may not work everywhere for everyone, and there are reasons why buying 2k at a time might be preferable depending on the store and the situation, but before you resort to stealth tactics and lies, why not try catching flies with honey rather than vinegar. A little human connection can go a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy2
Everyone in line can see that a person has lots of blank money orders in his or her possession.
I never have more than one blank money order at a time. As soon as the cashier finishes writing the serial number down on his/her form and gives me the MO, I immediately make it payable to myself and sign. Problem solved, no stack of blank money orders. If you're really paranoid, you can also immediately photograph the MO/receipt with your phone and/or tear off and pocket the stub. If you're buying enough MO that WM logs the serial numbers, I'm sure they'd also let you copy them off the form they just filled out so you could report them as stolen if you were robbed in the parking lot. I generally go straight from WM to my CU to deposit, so as to minimize the time I have the MO in my possession. If you're buying 2k at a time, it'll probably be a more efficient use of your time to save some up from multiple trips before you deposit, which means you're hanging on to them longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanpboles
I went to WM today. Asked for two MO at $1k each. Lady instantly wanted my SS card and photo ID. I refused. She said any MO purchase over $1k requires it. So I got one for $999 instead.
Who carries their actual SS card around with them? That's a ridiculous demand for them to make. I actually think despite the general rule to never escalate, it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to a manager about this, followed by corporate if that fails, because I can't imagine that it's really their policy to require someone to bring their physical SS card with them to buy $1k in MO. No need to mention GC or MS if you complain, you can just be a normal customer who wanted to buy a $1k MO. The number is one thing but the physical card is a bridge too far. It's not like they can't verify you gave them your true SSN after the fact and file a SAR based on the info from your DL if you lied to them. So why the physical card? Sounds like someone at this store is either a) misinformed about WM policy or b) deliberately making up their own rules. Either way, it sounds like something higher ups should know about.
Originally Posted by hamhead
Exactly. Banking operates much differently.
While AML is always at the forefront for everyone exposed to the laws, the amounts of money dealt with is much different.
I can push a button and write off $5k in my daily world in investment banking. No one blinks an eye at that - its normal. Total balance sheet is hundreds of billions of dollars. $5k is a drop in a very large ocean.
$5k to a Wal-Mart employee at a CS desk is a massive anomaly in his/her day.
This, I think, is the cause of a lot of our MS problems - the people we deal with at these stores don't necessarily realize that our profit margin is only a small percentage of face value, and that we're not really spending the money that we "spend" as it ultimately returns to us in a circle. What would you think of someone who came in and bought thousands in money orders or gift cards on a frequent basis if you knew nothing about MS? For me, the solution has been to tell them what I'm up to in enough detail for them to understand the true purpose of the transaction(s) I'm running at their store, and to realize that the vast majority of the funds from the MO I buy goes to pay the CCs that bought the GC, and not to rolling around in stacks of freshly laundered $100 bills. It may not make a difference from the standpoint of federal law or corporate policy what your profit margin is, but the store employees are human and it will change their attitude towards the whole situation.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, YMMV, etc. but I prefer this approach to trying to go under the radar or giving vague answers about paying bills and whatnot. I've been banned from one Walmart money center for several months now and since then I've been routinely buying five figure amounts with GC at another WM a few miles away that is night and day in terms of their reaction, though I do think I learned somewhat from my experience at the first WM. The difference is that at the first WM, they didn't believe me when I told them what was going on after being confronted by a supervisor, who decided I was a money launderer (and probably filed a SAR), while the second WM was better able to grasp the concept of how moving one's own funds in a circle could be a profitable activity with the right credit cards. At the second WM, the cashiers are quite friendly now and seem to want to help me out rather than figure out a way to get me shut down and making up new and more restrictive rules. I keep the cashiers' bosses happy by giving them my DL and SSN with each purchase so they can fill out the MIL forms and have a huge folder somewhere with a list of all the MO I've bought there in the last 5 years. I'm not crazy about the thought of that, but I feel it's a reasonable price to pay. With the frequency we are treated as criminals, it's really nice to have stores where they know and trust you, quite aside from the efficiency gains that result from the ability to do larger transactions. The first WM, where I am banned from the MC, is closer to where I live, but I make a point of not shopping there at all anymore and taking all my business to the Walmart where I buy MO by way of a small repayment for all the CC rewards they have helped me earn. Stores that sell MO don't make money on them, they do it as a convenience so that you can get everything you need there and will therefore shop at their store and buy things that they do make money on. So to make that a worthwhile investment for WM, I buy whatever I need and can get at a competitive price while I'm there buying MO. AFAIK no one who works at the money center has any idea whether I buy anything other than MO, and it's not like I spend a huge amount or anything, but I'm satisfied knowing that I'm voting with my dollars.
This strategy may not work everywhere for everyone, and there are reasons why buying 2k at a time might be preferable depending on the store and the situation, but before you resort to stealth tactics and lies, why not try catching flies with honey rather than vinegar. A little human connection can go a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy2
Everyone in line can see that a person has lots of blank money orders in his or her possession.
I never have more than one blank money order at a time. As soon as the cashier finishes writing the serial number down on his/her form and gives me the MO, I immediately make it payable to myself and sign. Problem solved, no stack of blank money orders. If you're really paranoid, you can also immediately photograph the MO/receipt with your phone and/or tear off and pocket the stub. If you're buying enough MO that WM logs the serial numbers, I'm sure they'd also let you copy them off the form they just filled out so you could report them as stolen if you were robbed in the parking lot. I generally go straight from WM to my CU to deposit, so as to minimize the time I have the MO in my possession. If you're buying 2k at a time, it'll probably be a more efficient use of your time to save some up from multiple trips before you deposit, which means you're hanging on to them longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanpboles
I went to WM today. Asked for two MO at $1k each. Lady instantly wanted my SS card and photo ID. I refused. She said any MO purchase over $1k requires it. So I got one for $999 instead.
Who carries their actual SS card around with them? That's a ridiculous demand for them to make. I actually think despite the general rule to never escalate, it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to a manager about this, followed by corporate if that fails, because I can't imagine that it's really their policy to require someone to bring their physical SS card with them to buy $1k in MO. No need to mention GC or MS if you complain, you can just be a normal customer who wanted to buy a $1k MO. The number is one thing but the physical card is a bridge too far. It's not like they can't verify you gave them your true SSN after the fact and file a SAR based on the info from your DL if you lied to them. So why the physical card? Sounds like someone at this store is either a) misinformed about WM policy or b) deliberately making up their own rules. Either way, it sounds like something higher ups should know about.
Apr 18, 2014, 8:10 pm
#753
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by savekenny
If these store associates are implementing their own rules, you should report them to the store manager or market manager. You should also note the store number and associate name and report to Walmart Financial Services. You can find their contact on google easily...
No, you shouldn't. Shaking things up is more likely to cause bad things to happen than good things. That's horrible advice.
Originally Posted by savekenny
If these store associates are implementing their own rules, you should report them to the store manager or market manager. You should also note the store number and associate name and report to Walmart Financial Services. You can find their contact on google easily...
No, you shouldn't. Shaking things up is more likely to cause bad things to happen than good things. That's horrible advice.
Apr 18, 2014, 8:13 pm
#754
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 102
Who carries their actual SS card around with them? That's a ridiculous demand for them to make. I actually think despite the general rule to never escalate, it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to a manager about this, followed by corporate if that fails, because I can't imagine that it's really their policy to require someone to bring their physical SS card with them to buy $1k in MO. No need to mention GC or MS if you complain, you can just be a normal customer who wanted to buy a $1k MO. The number is one thing but the physical card is a bridge too far. It's not like they can't verify you gave them your true SSN after the fact and file a SAR based on the info from your DL if you lied to them. So why the physical card? Sounds like someone at this store is either a) misinformed about WM policy or b) deliberately making up their own rules. Either way, it sounds like something higher ups should know about.
After spending a few minutes chatting with the troopers I had free reign at that store.
Apr 18, 2014, 8:38 pm
#755
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,944
The big legal concern is whether Structuring occurs, which is the arrangement of these transactions in a manner as to avoid places like WalMart recording the transactions in the Daily Monetary Log and/or filing Currency Transaction Reports. It has always made business sense to me to carry much less than $3,000 in gift cards to reduce the risk of loss and theft. To me, one transaction with the maximum four cards being run at a time is the way to go. The fact that this might reduce the likelihood of reports being generated by WalMart is secondary to the risk of loss associated with carrying around large sums of gift cards at one time and the risk that WalMart asks a customer to not come back because he is creating long lines at the Money Center (or worse that WalMart ends this opportunity for everyone because of that guy).
Now, if worst came to worse, whether this would convince a jury is harder to know! Especially if I am buying $2k 15 times a month.
Apr 18, 2014, 8:40 pm
#756
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,322
Although I haven't personally experienced the ridiculous behavior described on these pages, I doubt that any follow-up through WM management (local or otherwise) would yield much.
I think a better route might be to complain to Moneygram directly. After all, WM is acting as MG's agent, selling the MO's. Unfortunately, MG itself is not set up in a very customer-friendly way, e.g., the CSRs at MG aren't going to know how to respond. So, I think you would need to direct the complaint to the executive level, and let it be delegated from there.
Pamela H. Patsley, chairman and chief executive officer.
Alex Holmes, executive vice president, chief operating officer,and chief financial officer.
MoneyGram International, Inc.
2828 N. Harwood Street, 15th Floor
Dallas, Texas 75201
(214) 999-7552
I think a better route might be to complain to Moneygram directly. After all, WM is acting as MG's agent, selling the MO's. Unfortunately, MG itself is not set up in a very customer-friendly way, e.g., the CSRs at MG aren't going to know how to respond. So, I think you would need to direct the complaint to the executive level, and let it be delegated from there.
Pamela H. Patsley, chairman and chief executive officer.
Alex Holmes, executive vice president, chief operating officer,and chief financial officer.
MoneyGram International, Inc.
2828 N. Harwood Street, 15th Floor
Dallas, Texas 75201
(214) 999-7552
Apr 18, 2014, 8:56 pm
#757
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 3,682
PaulMSN's advice is solid and worth reading again. Proving your power over people you deem beneath you may make you feel better, but I'll be down the road at another store that runs my transactions through without issue.
Apr 18, 2014, 9:41 pm
#758
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 77
I think it all depends on the store and what they're used to. I buy MOs at my local WM all the time (probably about twice a week). The first few times I got some questions and weird looks but now it's usually a very smooth process. About the 1/2 dozen regular CSRs know what I'm up to now. I walk up and they just ask me how many I want. They punch them into the computer, I swipe my card, hand them my ID so they can fill out my name, etc into their system and they print out. As they hand them to me one by one I print my name on them and sign them. Before I leave I remove the stubs and put them with the receipt in one pocket and the MOs in my wallet. I have had a CSR want to fill out a form one time but that was before they really knew what they were doing. She didn't even take my SSN even though the form had a line for it. I've since bought many from the same CSR without any forms or anything. And, no, I don't limit my MO purchases to $2K. If you go to the service desk during the week before 10AM or after 9PM (they're open until 10PM) you're usually the only customer up there or you might have one person behind you. If I go on the weekend it's only at night.
Apr 19, 2014, 6:37 am
#759
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Posts: 1,139
Yes, I do the same and try to have only $2k in debit cards at one time, the max I am happy buying, and carrying. Then I buy MOs and deposit. So I am never in the situation of say having $10K in MO and depositing them in 4 different banks, I just deposit all that I have.
Now, if worst came to worse, whether this would convince a jury is harder to know! Especially if I am buying $2k 15 times a month.
Now, if worst came to worse, whether this would convince a jury is harder to know! Especially if I am buying $2k 15 times a month.
Apr 19, 2014, 12:37 pm
#760
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: All of them!
Posts: 322
After frequent requests for my SS card at different WMs, I began carrying mine. I was asked again and presented it. I was accused by the employee of having an 'obviously false' SS card (it was not). They called the police on me the next time I was there.
After spending a few minutes chatting with the troopers I had free reign at that store.
After spending a few minutes chatting with the troopers I had free reign at that store.
You can be assured that money is made from that 70 cents MO fee charged.
Apr 19, 2014, 1:00 pm
#761
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: All of them!
Posts: 322
After frequent requests for my SS card at different WMs, I began carrying mine. I was asked again and presented it. I was accused by the employee of having an 'obviously false' SS card (it was not). They called the police on me the next time I was there.
After spending a few minutes chatting with the troopers I had free reign at that store.
After spending a few minutes chatting with the troopers I had free reign at that store.
You can be assured that money is made from that 70 cents MO fee charged.
Apr 19, 2014, 2:02 pm
#762
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
Apr 19, 2014, 2:35 pm
#763
Formerly known as FTRox87
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX
Programs: AA/US 1M, AS, BA, CX, EK, EY, JL, KE, LH, NH, OS, QF, QR, TG, UA/CO | *$G
Posts: 1,428
I think it all depends on the store and what they're used to. I buy MOs at my local WM all the time (probably about twice a week). The first few times I got some questions and weird looks but now it's usually a very smooth process. About the 1/2 dozen regular CSRs know what I'm up to now. I walk up and they just ask me how many I want. They punch them into the computer, I swipe my card, hand them my ID so they can fill out my name, etc into their system and they print out. As they hand them to me one by one I print my name on them and sign them. Before I leave I remove the stubs and put them with the receipt in one pocket and the MOs in my wallet. I have had a CSR want to fill out a form one time but that was before they really knew what they were doing. She didn't even take my SSN even though the form had a line for it. I've since bought many from the same CSR without any forms or anything. And, no, I don't limit my MO purchases to $2K. If you go to the service desk during the week before 10AM or after 9PM (they're open until 10PM) you're usually the only customer up there or you might have one person behind you. If I go on the weekend it's only at night.
and for the hell of it, per week and per month?
Apr 19, 2014, 2:47 pm
#764
Formerly known as FTRox87
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX
Programs: AA/US 1M, AS, BA, CX, EK, EY, JL, KE, LH, NH, OS, QF, QR, TG, UA/CO | *$G
Posts: 1,428
How can I be assured of that? They're paying more than 70 cents in swipe fees at 21 cents + 0.05% per swipe. Who knows what their contract with MoneyGram looks like, so it's impossible to say for sure, but I doubt their pricing structure was designed with us in mind. The typical customer uses 1 or 2 debit cards max, not a stack of GC. Also, if you're standing there swiping your stack of GC for 15 minutes, they're paying the cashier for that time helping you while you're holding up the line of people behind you who need to return something or buy one or two MO with cash or one debit swipe. It's not like CVS where our transactions may take longer than usual, but nowhere near as long as liquidating the GC. That definitely costs the store money indirectly, although if you go during a less busy time it's not such a big deal. That probably translates into less chance of them deciding to cut you off or impose rules like max 1 transaction. Don't bite the hand that feeds and be a pain to deal with and you're a lot more likely to be tolerated.
speaking of contracts, WM prolly makes money by letting MG *rent* their MC space with little B&M overhead cost (plus no labor as the workers are employed by WM) ... perhaps MG charges processing fees to either WM (for using MG *printers*) perhaps they charge the card network payment is made on. perhaps MG also charges banks or whoever cashes the check (and could have their own mass bundle contracts.) but we dont know as most all of us are not privy to any of those kinda details.
if nothing else, MOs drive a lotta foot traffic (like WM needs more lol damn long lines) so WM counts on those fringe benefits that you actually end up spending and buying a lot more than you came in for. and ends up giving MG a small cut. maybe its a mix and match balance of all the above options -- which I'm sure the big wigs worked out when they were negotiating and setting up these services in the first place!
Apr 19, 2014, 9:46 pm
#765
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 77
LOL, I usually buy anywhere between 4 and 8 of $1K each at a time and try to do it at least twice a week. All at the same store. I have a store right behind my office so I literally walk out the back parking lot of my office and I'm in the back of the WM lot. I live a mile away too so that's why I got at night sometimes shortly before they close.