Serious question: What makes a "luxury" hotel?
May 19, 2010, 10:09 pm
#62
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considering this has come up more broadly in some other recent threads, perhaps time for another bump
http://www.fa-mag.com/component/cont...xperience.html
first story reminds me of 2nd article here >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12637116-post39.html
also speaking of hotels reviewing online reviews, see some of my more recent posts incl stories of hotels responding in real life to twitter reports
http://www.fa-mag.com/component/cont...xperience.html
first story reminds me of 2nd article here >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12637116-post39.html
also speaking of hotels reviewing online reviews, see some of my more recent posts incl stories of hotels responding in real life to twitter reports
May 20, 2010, 10:49 pm
#63
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This is a really interesting thread and something I've wondered about quite a bit.
A few weeks ago, I wrote the following at the conclusion of a review of the Four Seasons in Prague.
For those interested, the review is online here.
A few weeks ago, I wrote the following at the conclusion of a review of the Four Seasons in Prague.
The mark of a true luxury hotel is not simply having luxurious surroundings. Rather, true luxury comes from something far more subtle, something that goes beyond material goods and manifests itself in a kind of feeling that is hard to describe but easy to recognize, a kind of effortless luxury that blends in with the surroundings and does not feel forced.
May 20, 2010, 11:13 pm
#64
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Yes, this has happened to me by one high-end chain, in particular. I have had some very nice veggie gifts as a result ...and have had a signed menu delivered by a rather well-known chef along with crudites.
Luxury hotels to me are really about service. They are about anticipating needs, rather than reacting to requests - the concierge surprising you with a table not just at the restaurant you wish to dine at, but at the preferred table in the wine cellar with a gift bottle of champagne from the hotel/concierge. It's not batting an eye when they think you've requested eight wastepaper baskets (actually had this misunderstanding once and they happily brought me eight, which I found amusing). It's leaving things where you've placed them (yes, I do want the wastepaper basket in a particular area and not moved back every day). It's seeing evidence housekeeping was there, but never actually seeing or hearing housekeeping or their carts in the halls. It's the club lounge attendant making sure there will be things I can eat there every night. It's the gym attendant bringing me, unrequested, a wet towel and fresh bottle of water in the middle of my workout. It's the hotel driver picking up on small clues, like a comment that you're starving, and having a room service menu available and offering to place an order for you so it's ready when you arrive at the hotel. Luxury hotels to me are far less defined by their furnishings and much more by their attentiveness and ability to anticipate needs.
May 21, 2010, 3:32 am
#65
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Luxury is inevitably an individual perception.
The collective perception of FT's Luxury finds common ground in service - and I think that's a good starting point.
Personally, I am inspired by ctuttle, obscure2k and jspira who prefer the "non-corporate" style of service.
I want to compare the Four Seasons' corporate style with the Louis Vuitton brand (nothing against vuittonsofstyle
here): it is simply the easy choice for the consumer. You know exactly what you get, where to find it, and everybody will understand the statement. Luxury for beginners.
But when I look for new hotels, I like to be inspired by connoisseurs who are above and beyond Louis Vuitton and understand the history, complexity, individuality, sometimes drama of brands like (for example) Attolini, Caruso, Patrick Hellmann. It can be a pain to get a suit from these guys, but that IS luxury.
Translated to hotels this may be the Hacienda Benazuza, Schlosshotel Friedrichsruhe, Wilderness Safaris in Africa (as examples that are rarely discussed here).
I assume that because of FT's background in "collecting miles&points" there is still a certain overweight on easy-to-understand luxury chains here.
Of course, if I was a manager who needs to stay in 5 different hotels per week on business, I'd probably also state the Four Season's "home away from home" as my preferred form of luxury.
If I was a holiday maker once a year I also wouldn't take any risks and go for the safe luxury of One&Only.
But if I was a gallivanter I might find the Royal Livingstone a more luxurious experience than the Georges V. because of the differential in surroundings. Just like the Serena in Gisenyi, the Kempinski in Djibouti or the Hyatt in Dushanbe to name some of the "wrong" chain hotels.
In Kage's http://www.elitetraveler.com/busines...-%209.5.06.pdf there is another good distinction of three types of luxury travelers (in the U-HNWI range): Trendsetters, Winners, Connoisseurs.
The definition of a luxury hotel depends depends so much on the individual's travel style!
Now to reduce some common ground and reinforce my enmities
:
Most important for me in luxury hotels is to see and meet interesting people, other guests with a distinct style, inspiring personality and a good story to tell. Simply those people who belong in there because they are made for it. That also has a lot to do with aesthetic style but not in the superficial way some people here want to understand it. Naturally, this gets some beating here. But guess from who?
The collective perception of FT's Luxury finds common ground in service - and I think that's a good starting point.
Personally, I am inspired by ctuttle, obscure2k and jspira who prefer the "non-corporate" style of service.
I want to compare the Four Seasons' corporate style with the Louis Vuitton brand (nothing against vuittonsofstyle
here): it is simply the easy choice for the consumer. You know exactly what you get, where to find it, and everybody will understand the statement. Luxury for beginners.But when I look for new hotels, I like to be inspired by connoisseurs who are above and beyond Louis Vuitton and understand the history, complexity, individuality, sometimes drama of brands like (for example) Attolini, Caruso, Patrick Hellmann. It can be a pain to get a suit from these guys, but that IS luxury.
Translated to hotels this may be the Hacienda Benazuza, Schlosshotel Friedrichsruhe, Wilderness Safaris in Africa (as examples that are rarely discussed here).
I assume that because of FT's background in "collecting miles&points" there is still a certain overweight on easy-to-understand luxury chains here.
Of course, if I was a manager who needs to stay in 5 different hotels per week on business, I'd probably also state the Four Season's "home away from home" as my preferred form of luxury.
If I was a holiday maker once a year I also wouldn't take any risks and go for the safe luxury of One&Only.
But if I was a gallivanter I might find the Royal Livingstone a more luxurious experience than the Georges V. because of the differential in surroundings. Just like the Serena in Gisenyi, the Kempinski in Djibouti or the Hyatt in Dushanbe to name some of the "wrong" chain hotels.
In Kage's http://www.elitetraveler.com/busines...-%209.5.06.pdf there is another good distinction of three types of luxury travelers (in the U-HNWI range): Trendsetters, Winners, Connoisseurs.
The definition of a luxury hotel depends depends so much on the individual's travel style!
Now to reduce some common ground and reinforce my enmities
:Most important for me in luxury hotels is to see and meet interesting people, other guests with a distinct style, inspiring personality and a good story to tell. Simply those people who belong in there because they are made for it. That also has a lot to do with aesthetic style but not in the superficial way some people here want to understand it. Naturally, this gets some beating here. But guess from who?
May 21, 2010, 8:15 am
#66
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so FS is generic and terrible but aman is good. oh wait, FS tented camp. etc.
(these kinds of generalizations do not go anywhere. not even all aman are equal.)
one thing ive said before TrophyCollector, is that it could be argued that you are the one paying for "names" - trendsetter style.
especially when a historical property refuses to maintain physical plant or service, why should one pay high rates to stay there?
regardless of whether it is decent or not, if service (etc) is not as good as another local property, there is absolutely no reason one could not stay at the property with better service etc and visit the historical property.
a historical setting IS something one can pay for - lots of places have it and sell it without any quality because they know people are interested. just like mainstream name brands.
service is not something one can just pay for. one has to have the standards to recognize it, which one then demonstrates to command it. and if something goes wrong (for example at the best property in the area) one knows who would want to know about the lapse and reports it, not with recovery in mind, but simply because one knows the person cares, because thats what being the best property in the area is all about.
putting a different value on service is one thing, but suggesting service has nothing to do with luxury (in any industry) seems strange to me. even when purchasing something that requires no maintenance, the service is before/during the sale.
(these kinds of generalizations do not go anywhere. not even all aman are equal.)
one thing ive said before TrophyCollector, is that it could be argued that you are the one paying for "names" - trendsetter style.
especially when a historical property refuses to maintain physical plant or service, why should one pay high rates to stay there?
regardless of whether it is decent or not, if service (etc) is not as good as another local property, there is absolutely no reason one could not stay at the property with better service etc and visit the historical property.
a historical setting IS something one can pay for - lots of places have it and sell it without any quality because they know people are interested. just like mainstream name brands.
service is not something one can just pay for. one has to have the standards to recognize it, which one then demonstrates to command it. and if something goes wrong (for example at the best property in the area) one knows who would want to know about the lapse and reports it, not with recovery in mind, but simply because one knows the person cares, because thats what being the best property in the area is all about.
putting a different value on service is one thing, but suggesting service has nothing to do with luxury (in any industry) seems strange to me. even when purchasing something that requires no maintenance, the service is before/during the sale.
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; May 22, 2010 at 9:03 am
May 24, 2010, 12:10 pm
#67
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so FS is generic and terrible but aman is good. oh wait, FS tented camp. etc.
(these kinds of generalizations do not go anywhere. not even all aman are equal.)
one thing ive said before TrophyCollector, is that it could be argued that you are the one paying for "names" - trendsetter style.
especially when a historical property refuses to maintain physical plant or service, why should one pay high rates to stay there?
regardless of whether it is decent or not, if service (etc) is not as good as another local property, there is absolutely no reason one could not stay at the property with better service etc and visit the historical property.
a historical setting IS something one can pay for - lots of places have it and sell it without any quality because they know people are interested. just like mainstream name brands.
service is not something one can just pay for. one has to have the standards to recognize it, which one then demonstrates to command it. and if something goes wrong (for example at the best property in the area) one knows who would want to know about the lapse and reports it, not with recovery in mind, but simply because one knows the person cares, because thats what being the best property in the area is all about.
putting a different value on service is one thing, but suggesting service has nothing to do with luxury (in any industry) seems strange to me. even when purchasing something that requires no maintenance, the service is before/during the sale.
(these kinds of generalizations do not go anywhere. not even all aman are equal.)
one thing ive said before TrophyCollector, is that it could be argued that you are the one paying for "names" - trendsetter style.
especially when a historical property refuses to maintain physical plant or service, why should one pay high rates to stay there?
regardless of whether it is decent or not, if service (etc) is not as good as another local property, there is absolutely no reason one could not stay at the property with better service etc and visit the historical property.
a historical setting IS something one can pay for - lots of places have it and sell it without any quality because they know people are interested. just like mainstream name brands.
service is not something one can just pay for. one has to have the standards to recognize it, which one then demonstrates to command it. and if something goes wrong (for example at the best property in the area) one knows who would want to know about the lapse and reports it, not with recovery in mind, but simply because one knows the person cares, because thats what being the best property in the area is all about.
putting a different value on service is one thing, but suggesting service has nothing to do with luxury (in any industry) seems strange to me. even when purchasing something that requires no maintenance, the service is before/during the sale.
Take the south of France. Le Chateau du Domaine St Martin is a lovely property, but the pillows are so hard that they put my neck out last time I stayed. I may be a wimp, but I need a good night's sleep these days!
May 25, 2010, 10:33 am
#68
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That is so true. The most fundamental purpose and role of a hotel is to provide it's guest a good night sleep, and it's surprising how often this can often be overlooked. What bothers me most in this aspect are not the pillows but noise due to poor soundproofing, and usually cheap 4-star and pseudo 5-star hotels are the worse offenders. As a light sleeper, I simply loathe hotels that have such thin walls that everything going on next door can be heard loud and clear which kept me awake all night.
May 25, 2010, 10:39 am
#69
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What bothers me most in this aspect are not the pillows but noise due to poor soundproofing, and usually cheap 4-star and pseudo 5-star hotels are the worse offenders. As a light sleeper, I simply loathe hotels that have such thin walls that everything going on next door can be heard loud and clear which kept me awake all night.
A second door by the bedroom would resolve that easily, as would better design of the door and entryway.
Anyone else notice this phenomenon?
May 25, 2010, 12:11 pm
#70
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I'm convinced that many hotels overlook the amplification effect that is inadvertently derived from the entryway design whereby the entryway serves as an amplifier for sounds outside in the hallway.
A second door by the bedroom would resolve that easily, as would better design of the door and entryway.
Anyone else notice this phenomenon?
A second door by the bedroom would resolve that easily, as would better design of the door and entryway.
Anyone else notice this phenomenon?
Jun 28, 2010, 12:40 pm
#72
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very interesting re design from a soundproofing perspective jspira and vuittonsofstyle
BENLEE - have you found common denominators amongst properties youve found to be well sound proofed? (chain, location, etc)
***
a new "twist" i dont think has been discussed much in any of the "sources" threads..
just posted >
from earlier in this thread >
from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1013743/ >
in the luxury travel industry, what words have become the worst offenders along these lines - most often representing at least exaggeration if not outright fabrication?
conversely, are there words that are being used by luxury hotels/chains that effectively communicate quality/service/etc?
or to be less serious, as that is what prompted my question, and i would not say this is something of great import - have you experienced a particularly amusing example of such a word turning out to be less than accurate?
and perhaps a better serious question would be - when advertising/PR get carried away, how do true luxury properties handle "recovery"?
BENLEE - have you found common denominators amongst properties youve found to be well sound proofed? (chain, location, etc)
***
a new "twist" i dont think has been discussed much in any of the "sources" threads..
just posted >
from earlier in this thread >
theres a few common [disinformation protocol] keywords to listen for, reassuring words - words like stabilize, secure, safe - if they say these words, particularly with repetition, it means theyre going to kill you
in the luxury travel industry, what words have become the worst offenders along these lines - most often representing at least exaggeration if not outright fabrication?
conversely, are there words that are being used by luxury hotels/chains that effectively communicate quality/service/etc?
or to be less serious, as that is what prompted my question, and i would not say this is something of great import - have you experienced a particularly amusing example of such a word turning out to be less than accurate?
and perhaps a better serious question would be - when advertising/PR get carried away, how do true luxury properties handle "recovery"?
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Jul 1, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Jul 1, 2010, 11:59 am
#73
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very interesting re design from a soundproofing perspective jspira and vuittonsofstyle
BENLEE - have you found common denominators amongst properties youve found to be well sound proofed? (chain, location, etc)
***
a new "twist" i dont think has been discussed much in any of the "sources" threads..
just posted >
from earlier in this thread >
from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1013743/ >
in the luxury travel industry, what words have become the worst offenders along these lines - most often representing at least exaggeration if not outright fabrication?
conversely, are there words that are being used by luxury hotels/chains that effectively communicate quality/service/etc?
or to be less serious, as that is what prompted my question, and i would not say this is something of great import - have you experienced a particularly amusing example of such a word turning out to be less than accurate?
[B]and perhaps a better serious question would be - when advertising/PR get carried away, how do true luxury properties handle "recovery"?[[/B
BENLEE - have you found common denominators amongst properties youve found to be well sound proofed? (chain, location, etc)
***
a new "twist" i dont think has been discussed much in any of the "sources" threads..
just posted >
from earlier in this thread >
from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1013743/ >
in the luxury travel industry, what words have become the worst offenders along these lines - most often representing at least exaggeration if not outright fabrication?
conversely, are there words that are being used by luxury hotels/chains that effectively communicate quality/service/etc?
or to be less serious, as that is what prompted my question, and i would not say this is something of great import - have you experienced a particularly amusing example of such a word turning out to be less than accurate?
[B]and perhaps a better serious question would be - when advertising/PR get carried away, how do true luxury properties handle "recovery"?[[/B
Jul 1, 2010, 1:15 pm
#74
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Jul 1, 2010, 2:05 pm
#75
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