ray1022

Kage-I was waiting for the real estate discussion to come...the homes are amazing. You can get fairly close to them from the ocean walk (and see the backs of the homes with their pools, etc) or on the flipside, walk through the neighborhoods (near their front entrances)

Kage - 72-218 Waiulu St is right on the ocean walk, but surrounded by a high lava rock wall. We also walked on Waiulu Street and saw its front gate. Here are its pictures:




Another property is a bit closer to the FS Resort (at the end of Kumukehu Street, right on the Ocean, and near the 18th teeboxes) and is currently listed for sale at $28mm. See below picture and also link to the listing:
http://www.chproperties.com/index.ph...01returnid=212




And this was my favorite property, right next door to the one on sale, also at the end of Kumukehu Street:

Kagehitokiri

its 72-183 kumukehu st where the pool looks like a square 80ft by 80ft
i guess its probably elevated like some others so not visible from golf course
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=four+s...49501&t=h&z=19

north of 183 is 186 then 184 then right/east to 182
southeast of 183 is 177

72-218 http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Hono...ticle=4#artanc
72-183 http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Hono...ticle=9#artanc
another http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Hono...ticle=3#artanc
2010 article with great photos says all 3 owned by billionaires

just noticed how much new info you included there ^

09XX is another oceanfront bungalow

24 oceanfront room incl 1 accessible > minus 4 in 09XX = 20 minus 5 specialty connecting = 15
3 superior oceanfront suite incl 1 accessible > minus 2 in 09XX = 1
i hear bungalows second from front can be oceanfront

also just noticed 36 pic gallery here http://www.gayot.com/gallery/main.ph...3464&g2_page=4

ray1022

Building 9 (to the left of Pahu i'a Restaurant) is actually a building with Suites (upper and lower) and Guest Rooms. This is where we were offered to pay to upgrade to a "Superior Suite -Oceanfront" Suite on the 2nd floor. It is not a standalone villa suite.

gsinghk

Hey there Ray!

Many many thanks for the reply and detailed pictures to go with the relevant info. I have sent you a personal message to your inbox.

Many Thanks

trojanman

First off, thank you to Ray for such a great TR. Secondly, my apologies for the slight derailment of the thread below.

As I read the incredible detail in the 2 newer reports on FS Hualalai, it got me thinking about my own visit in 2010. I must say that while my wife and I had great time and we would certainly return, I no longer have the same feeling of enthusiasm as Ray and NYBanker.

Sadly, I feel that I've been spoiled by a few "once in a lifetime" properties that have made me overly critical of every other hotel. (For reference, I am referring to FS Tented Camp and Singita, and to a lesser degree La Residence Franschoek)

In hindsight, I believe I felt that the resort didn't deliver an experience commensurate with $1,000+ a night room rates and $700+ a day in incidental charges.

It's hard to summarize my thoughts, but this is my best effort:

- With 243 rooms, I feel the property lacks the intimacy to create a vacation experience on-par with the properties listed above. I could be wrong, but I feel that most other non-European properties in this price range typically have far fewer rooms. Aman comes to mind...

- At these prices, I would expect hotel staff to make an effort to memorize our names. While a couple did, most made no effort. Of course, with 243 rooms, it would be very difficult to memorize everyone's name...

- The resort holds once-weekly "manager's receptions", but we missed the reception due to our arrival day and relatively short stay (3 nights). Other than this, there are really no other special activities or treats for guests.

- The very fact that most reviews warn people to make dining and spa reservations in advance seems to support my argument that the property is far too large for its own good.

- Complete lack of management interaction. To me, one hallmark of incredible properties is a proper welcome by management, followed by occasional "check-ins" throughout the stay. We were never greeted by a manager nor did we ever notice a manager even once during our stay.

- Lack of consistently incredible food. My wife and I enjoyed the breakfast buffet, but it was really nothing to write home about. To me, the best buffet breakfast (not counting special Sunday Brunches) are at FS Mexico City and Peninsula BKK. Beach Tree, while enjoyed by many in FT reviews, seemed to be pumping out mediocre food during our stay. We would never go back to Beach Tree based on our first and only experience. Pahuia for dinner, I will admit, was quite amazing.

- Incredible price disparity between lead in rooms and premiums rooms. While one can get a "golf-ocean view" room for around $630 per night, the exact same room with an "oceanview" location is over $1,000 per night and has an arguably worse view of the ocean. In fact, the only rooms with unobstructed proper ocean views are "oceanfront" rooms at over $1,250 per night! I can't think of any property I've visited anywhere else in the world that offers the exact same size and caliber of room in different locations for a 100% price disparity.

- Strict 1-category upgrade policy. I have visited numerous FS properties around the world and found that most (though certainly not all) tend to offer multiple-category upgrades, especially during times of low occupancy. My average upgrade at FS properties is 2-categories and my best upgrade ever was at FS Miami where I received a 5-category upgrade from the lead-in room to a full one-bedroom suite.

ray1022

Trojanman - thanks and you definitely raise some excellent points - I agree with you 100%. I think you focused on almost all of the same issues that I did highlight in my trip report as items that did irk me - perhaps I didn't call out/highlight these items more prominently as I should have (management interaction with guests, size of property making you feel like more of a "number" than a valued guest, lack of granting our special requests that we made in advance, and their upgrade policy - I too have gotten very generous upgrades at other properties and was a bit shocked that only this property tried to charge me for the upgrade rather than just provide it).

Overall, while we did have a very nice stay, I do think the Resort does not compete in the same level of service as, say, an Aman Resort (our stays at Amankila and Amanjiwo still are the highlights of our travel experiences) and we somewhat level set our expectations accordingly. I was coming at the report based on the FS Hualalai's relative proximity to the US and the other options available in Hawaii/the Big Island. I think once you take those items into consideration and compare FS Hualalai to other properties in the US or in somewhat close proximity, it likely is one of the better resorts available and is extremely well-run from an operational perspective. And especially one of the better resorts that are more family oriented.

And, yes, you bring up another good point about the high nightly rate at FS Hualalai when comparing it to some of the nightly rates at these other properties that truly define "service" and "experience", which arguably are not much more per night, yet the service interaction is far different (in a positive way). You statement that "...one hallmark of incredible properties is a proper welcome by management, followed by occasional "check-ins" throughout the stay..." is one that I always look for, but only experience on occasion. As a GM, I would make this my top priority - it is so simple to implement, yet makes such a difference as a guest who experiences this type of treatment. Thinking back, all the stays that I rank in my top 5 are stays where multiple management staff have greeted us, interacted with us during the stay, and kept in touch afterwards - and perhaps I have ranked them as such b/c of this fact.

I think one point that I briefly mentioned in my trip report was the FSPP program - I felt here at this resort (and lately more often at other properties) it did nothing more than just provide the amenities. I expect, and would think, that it should provide some special attention by the staff/management, granting of the requests that you have made, but it seems more and more that many properties don't really pay much attention that you are a FSPP guest or a Virtuoso guest. Perhaps more and more people are booking through these channels and the "value-add" gets diluted, but that then begs the question as to how does one receive great service on their stay and get recognized, aside from being a VVIP or celebrity.

All in all, some great points and definitely some food for thought.

Kagehitokiri

IMHO totally on topic to FS hualalai.
disregarding value?
disregarding americas and all "chain" hotels? "chain" hotels are often/usually poor value. (vs lux/boutique)
you said $160 custom tasting menu was 1-2 michelin star quality
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...l#post13683352
first - "you've visited" and second - sometimes overall room quality actually decreases as 'features' like views increase

hualalai DOES have residences one can rent
+ some condos next to cheapest rooms
+ some have pools
- only "official" rentals have FS housekeeping and room service?
- resort/kids addons, which might vary depending on channel?
i much prefer 25% or more discount on upgrades >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...l#post13683352
references discounted upgrade from oceanfront suite to milo suite (5 category) >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...l#post18310976

there are two things there is no excuse for allowing - "holding" pool chairs and kids in adult pool

personally, considering the size, i find it kind of odd that they let the public come in to dining/etc and take space away from guests/residents/etc. but closing to public seems like something that just doesnt happen, regardless of size, and regardless of being a resort. whatever, if they ever did not give priority to guest/resident over public, even for events (which should require room nights), that is just ridiculous.

one thing that is interesting (and can be seen as either a positive or negative) is that there doesnt seem to be a reported service difference here between cheapest and the ~$2K/nt level.

trojanman

Ray, thanks again for being a gracious host in your own thread. It seems like this type of interaction is becoming less frequent on FT and similar sites.

Kage, some of my responses here will apply to both Ray and you, so please don't be offended if I don't direct responses exclusively to you.

With respect to value: Yes it's tough to compare Asia and Africa to North America, but I still feel it can be done. I am the first in line to acknowledge that FS Hualalai is the undisputed king of Hawaii. But, I would argue that several North American properties offer "once in a lifetime" type experiences at a similar or lesser net cost than FS Hualalai. Just a few examples: Triple Creek Ranch, Tu Tu Tun Lodge, Winvian, King Pacific, perhaps the 3 Amans?, etc...Compared to each of these, FS Hualalai is really bottom of the barrel. What do the others have in common: much smaller properties, and much higher level of management interaction with guests.

With respect to chains: Yes, I agree most chains (including Ritz and St Regis) tend to be mediocre, and I also agree that FS Hualalai is great for a chain. However, I for one have always held FS an echelon above RC and the others, but I believe it is starting to lose its glitz and glamour especially after Izzy Sharp's departure. To me, FS Hualalai is not even the darling of the north americas anymore. I feel my wife and I received substantially better value for the dollar at FS Costa Rica, and someone else I know thought FS Punta Mita was mind bogglingly great.

With respect to residence rental: Unlike a few other FS properties, there is no "official" Four Seasons branded rental available for private homes and villas at Hualalai. However, the management company that owns the Hualalai development also owns a rental management company. They use the same linens and toiletries as the FS Hualalai, and offer daily housekeeping service.

They peg their nightly rate at the same rate per bedroom as a commensurate FS Hualalai hotel room. So if a private residence is far from the water and has 2 bedrooms, it may rent for around 2 Golf Ocean hotel rooms ($1260+). If a residence is oceanfront and has 3 bedrooms it may rent for 3 oceanfront rooms ($3,750+). Theoretically this represents a greater value than regular hotel rooms, as you get much more square footage, a kitchen, private golf cart, etc... However, for those of us traveling as 2-person couples, this pricing scheme is not beneficial at all.

One can rent villas and condos privately (not through the Hualalai management company) and can expect to save 10% - 30% over Hualalai prices. But the downside is lack of proper linens/toiletries/maid service.

With respect to food: No need to re-hash this. I stand by what I said. The breakfast is good but not excellent, and Beach Tree is highly over-rated. Pahuia is excellent. To me, most of our excellent meals were off-property.

With respect to the upgrade policy: The "1 category only" upgrade policy is incredibly popular in Japan and Europe, but really doesn't fit the US mindset. FS Hualalai believes it is protecting its brand equity and value by not giving away freebies. Frequent North American FS travelers believe it is an asinine policy that alienates frequent FS guests. 'Nuff said.

Kagehitokiri

thank god for the luxury hotels forum

triple creek and blackberry farm prices going up faster than twin farms. winvian is not regarded like twin farms. king pacific is one of the most expensive properties in the world, and no reports. amans mixed, although giri more consistent lately. besides blackberry room only, entry price at hualalai lower than most of these. although free night (etc) deals can change that, and while rare, happen at all these properties.

lack of luxury beachfront is global problem. hualalai does have some beach.

when i say chain, i personally dont include FS. or RC in terms of pricing, although RC is kind of in between chain and FS in terms of statistics.

of course outside US is better value. i look forward to Valveking adding discussion on hualalai, including comparison to punta mita, including residential units. but hualalai has no real negative service reports. there are 6 properties like that in this forum.

pricing scheme of private rentals - occupancy is irrelevant, all that is relevant is comparative value, and yes rental value can be decreased by missing amenities/location

pretty sure the hualalai mgmt co offers FS mgmt. for whatever reason they dont put them in hotel inventory, but this might actually be some kind of US regulatory thing..?

food i was just clarifying that you judged custom menu, not regular menu.

i should have said of course upgrades to top suites, or multicat upgrades are great, but when that does NOT happen wouldnt you agree offering a great discount (like you paying $1K for 2nd best at pen BKK) is a solid offering? while hualalai's annual occupancy may be average, clearly festive and i guess peak season around festive are high occupancy. thats just another thing that has to be taken into account when comparing upgrade policies of various properties. comparisons can not be done absolutely or in a vacuum. also value of upgrades, quality of property, city/resort, business/leisure, etc - specifically in terms of upgrades.

im not overstating overall quality/value/etc of hualalai. and i dont think any else has. the only thing that IS amazing is how consistent it is in this forum.

also, there are different style preferences in this forum as well. some of which come down to sacrificing certain amenities at smaller properties.

note im not even getting into my preferences, beside a comment on upgrade discounts.

while i dont recall other foodies posting (on hualalai/hawaii) so far, im sure those here would love this information

Valveking

Thanks for the great thread folks. I have only heard and read great things about Hualalai. As Kage mentioned, we are going for a long trip there this summer, but we are renting a villa so I won't have much to add on the rooms themselves although I am going to get the hotel to show me some rooms.

I will certainly give a thorough comparison to Punta Mita since we have been there many times. I am also considering a trip to the FS Costa Rica in the next year or so. I have heard great reports about it.

I have a couple of quick questions about FS Hualalai. We are going this summer. Do we need to make any advance dinner reservations before arrival? Secondly, is there going to be any problem getting pool chairs? Nothing drives me crazier than the 7AM pool chair maniacs that seem to occupy every RC beach resort. Thirdly. are any of the restaurants at the other Kohala resorts like the Mauna Lani and Fairmont any good in case we need some variety?

Kagehitokiri

yes reservations, although regulars can probably clarify how busy summer is

pool chair problem during festive - two new reports, while others previously seemed to suggest no problem

Goodmorning2U

Valveking,

I'm very much looking forward to your comparison to the FS Punta Mita.

Regarding summer at the FS Hualalai, you will likely have no difficulty finding chairs around the pool during the summer. (I've been there during Festive and unless I had a favorite lounger (emphasis on lounger) I never had a problem finding a place by the pool...I don't recommend leaving the restaurant for dining elsewhere. You will likely be disappointed. Until Maui, there are very few restaurants worth visiting off Hualalai's property and those relatively far away.

I've written extensively on this hotel and why its my favorite resort in the world but I think its worth repeating that the service, rooms with lava showers, spa, exercise classes, and food are all outstanding and worth visiting regardless of location. What makes this place an absolute must visit in addition to the kindness of the people, is the natural surroundings. In the morning my recommendation is to forget the pool loungers at 7:00 am, RUN down to Kona Village to kayak with the dolphins! In the afternoon feed the Eagle Ray and the sharks. In the evening stroll along the water and watch the families of turtles nesting on the beaches as the sun sets. Have a great time and please share your adventure with us.

Kagehitokiri

which is partly a testament to the lack of beachfront luxury

* could you name some resorts? just names would be good, even without any additional details or thoughts.
scratch resorts - i see you selected it as your 'one hotel not to miss' - so could name any kind of property.
wow. have to admit im kind of surprised it appeared in that thread. although other regulars havent posted yet.

previously >
* considering trojanman's discussion of food, it sounds like it would not be well regarded by Groombridge, deer, vuittonsofstyle for example.. (other than the custom de-gustation menu trojanman described, assuming chef Jacob is still there) >
re custom menu >
gym >
* need an amanpuri comparison
2 reports from dec 18-24 2011 and jan 1+ 2012 include problems with pool chairs >

http://www.sitinfirst.com/2012/01/ch...he-experience/
FS doesnt enforce, while disney aulani does...... >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163168

ACfly

I will be holidaying at the resort next week and will provide an update. We will be staying at the Ocean view suite, and thi swill be our second visit.

Just reading some of the feedback above. I think it is a bit unrealistic to compare the service that ones receives at any of the top North American resorts with those in Asia (like the Aman). I have yet to to find a NA resort that delivers the service like those in Asia. It's a very different culture. Even at the Aman in the US, doesn't compare with the Aman in Asia.

NYBanker

This appears to be much ado about nothing, but the FS Hualalai mortgage was sent to special servicing. The mortgage was extended four times and that fourth maturity date has now come and gone.

Against that, it seems the LTV is quite low and I'd say foreclosure quite unlikely...but interesting to see the tactics used in financing properties like this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-servicer.html

Fitch has a number of facts off in their report. Maybe they should rest FT!