bhrubin

Indeed, Starwood owns Design Hotels--which is nothing more than a distribution platform. But only about half of the Design Hotels portfolio also has officially joined Starwood's SPG loyalty program--and even then with limited participation and almost no elite benefits (no guaranteed Plat upgrades, breakfast, or late checkout). But one does earn points and can redeem points for an award stay. However, one must book Design Hotels through spg.com or other SPG channels to get SPG credit.

Often, booking through non-SPG channels finds lower prices for almost all Design Hotels. So be aware.

Of the SPG Design Hotels portfolio, still very few would be considered luxury hotels by average daily rate or by any 5 star rating criteria. The recent addition of Kenoa in Brazil is an exception. If The Thief in Oslo ever were to join SPG (as it is a member of the Design Hotels platform but not yet SPG--even as it is part of Nordic Choice) it would be another obvious luxury hotel exception.

As this is the Luxury Forum, I believe we should be talking about luxury hotels. Obviously, the Design Hotels brand in SPG is not really about luxury hotels. There are many wonderful boutique options available, of course...but still not luxury hotels.

bhrubin

As stated previously, there will be different opinions of what constitutes luxury. By average daily rate, W is luxury (2016 average daily rate $351), even more so than JW Marriott (2016 average daily rate $278) By the parameters and expectations of this Luxury Forum, neither usually would be considered luxury. It's all relative...and YMMV.

For those like me with elite SPG Platinum status, mine being Plat100 status, staying at a W can be quite comparable to a true luxury hotel. Not always true...but true enough that I know it can make a big difference.

I would challenge that very few Design Hotels qualify as luxury, as previously stated. Either by average room rate or any other criteria, and with very few exceptions, almost all of the Design Hotels are what we would consider 3-4 star hotels.

Our thread title asked about BRANDS. So I think we're getting off topic actually by referring to specific properties rather than the overall brands involved.

The Luxury Collection brand includes mostly 5 star luxury properties. Of course, there are some less luxurious properties in the brand, too. The same goes for Four Seasons (Sydney) and St Regis (Houston) and RC (San Juan), etc.

The SPG Design Hotel brand includes mostly 3-4 star hotels. There are only a handful of possible luxury properties in the brand: Gramercy Park Hotel in NYC, Kenoa in Brazil, there just aren't they many.

The same is true for Marriott Autograph Collection and Starwood Tribute Portfolio, both of which are almost entirely comprised of 3-4 star hotels, those in the upper upscale and upscale daily rate segments. There may be a luxury hotel in there, but that would be the exception.

mike_la_jolla

Yep. Although I'd use the phrase 'actively hostile' rather than 'lacking' when describing the London hotel.

Serious question for the OP: There are good W Hotels? Where? When did THAT happen?

MSPeconomist

I think it's misleading to identify luxury chains on the basis of room rates. Chains that have properties located in more expensive locations will look luxurious, while those focusing on other countries or cities won't tend to seem to be luxury.

bhrubin

megalab

The Marriott home page ranks their brands as: RC, StR, EDIT, TLC, BVL, W, JWM, etc. Surprised Westin and LeM were below M, Sheraton and Delta(?!?). Probably based on some combo of business metrics and political power of the brand management.

I've never been to a BVL or EDIT property but their websites do project luxury. While many brands below BVL have some luxury properties, none of those brands would give me the same sense of anticipation (and expectations) as the top 5 would.

FWIW, the Marriott Wikipedia page brand classification list (alphabetical order in each category) does have W as a "luxury brand", but I still beg to differ:
Classic Luxury
JW Marriott
Ritz-Carlton
St. Regis

Distinctive Luxury
Bulgari Hotels & Resorts
Edition Hotels
The Luxury Collection
W Hotels

bhrubin

I'm not the OP, but I suspect that was directed to me! If I'm wrong, my apologies for the hubris.

There are several W properties that are renown for excellent service and great experiences--with the concomitant W edge, of course, that still won't be to everyone's taste. For those of us who enjoy the social club, see-and-be-seen crowd and nightlife ambience, the W can be an excellent (albeit not always luxury) experience.

I'd include W properties in Montreal, Hong Kong. Bogota, West Los Angeles/Beverly Hills, Viques Puerto Rico, Koh Samui, South Beach, Guangzhou, Austin, St. Petersburg, Amsterdam, Minneapolis, San Francisco, and even the Maldives. I haven't been to all of those, so I can't validate the impressions entirely. But I can vouch personally for Montreal, Hong Kong, Bogota, West Los Angeles, Viques, South Beach, Austin, and San Francisco.

Keep in mind that W wasn't started as a luxury brand; it started as an upscale lifestyle brand. It only developed into a luxury brand as its rates skyrocketed because of increasingly high demand. So the first conversion Ws since the first in New York in 1998 weren't intended for the luxury market. Only newer builds and conversions were built/refurbished to serve as luxury hotels, once SPG could see it had struck a gold mine. That's why all the newer hotels (especially in Asia) are so much nicer, and that's why so many older Ws recently have been renovated and refurbished (London, Paris, New York, Seattle, West Los Angeles, etc) or dropped entirely (San Diego). The service culture of W also had to adapt from upscale in the 2000s to the luxury standard of today. Few brands have undergone such transition--or exceeded the baseline expectations--as much as W.

FWIW, I do believe my SPG Platinum 100 "Ambassador" status also elevates my experiences. But that is comparable to using a great TA who gets certain perks or makes management pay better attention...or to being a returning guest at many properties.

I despise the FSGV for all the blue hair and formality but still appreciate that it's appealing to others. I despise the Bulgari pomp and snootiness. I despise the MO Bangkok for its formality and outmoded dress code. I think many are a little too old and a little too traditional to enjoy or appreciate a W. And that's just fine and dandy by me. Makes it easier for me to get a Sazerac at the bar.

I understand that most herein will not label W as luxury. That's fine. But I have had luxury experiences at many W hotels, regardless--just as I've also had underwhelming experiences at some W hotels. But I can say the same for my stays with Four Seasons.

MikeFromTokyo

Luxury or not, the W Barcelona appeals to me. I will stay the next time I am in Barcelona. And, I freely admit that I am by no means a fan of W hotels in particular. The only other places I would remotely consider W are Taipei and Seminyak, and in the latter case, it would be really hard for me to ever envision choosing W over The Oberoi or The Legian, so it's unlikely I'll ever try it.

I wouldn't touch W Maldives with a ten foot pole. But, StR Vommuli, on the other hand, absolute has me interested in their sunset overwater suites. And recent reports of service and F&B have been glowing.

Epicura

I can vote for W Barcelona as a potentially great hotel.

Stayed twice. During super high season (July and August) we were not particularly impressed. Hard product is nice enough but the place was so crowded it felt like a zoo. During a stay in May: I would almost say WOW. Plat status (and returning guests) got us upgraded to a suite with views to die for. Service was outstanding. To give you an example: I was still on my way to BCN but husband and our 13-year old son took an earlier flight. From the airport to the W, the rental car my husband was driving got involved in a car crash with a taxi driver (taxi neglected a red sign). Things got a bit heated so my husband did send my son with the luggage in a cab to the W. The 13 year old was warmly welcomed although he didn't even carry his passport or a confirmation number due to the fuss (he could only claim "my mummy has reserved a room"). W welcomed him anyway and gave him a temporary room with drinks and food. They went out of their way to comfort him.

The design of the hotel is nice and the W is within walking distance to Barcelonetta. Restaurants are very good with warm and attentive service. We will likely return for a short stay next month.

ridefar

I can vouch for the first 2. I might also be inclined to add Istanbul. I think your assessment is dead on in terms of the brand. There are several individual properties that could reasonably be called luxury. And there are several that shouldn't (like Times Square and Union Square in NYC for example, or Seattle). But certain properties really do get it right.

laf747

As the old saying goes "different strokes for different folks" some of us old "dinosaurs" appreciate and enjoy formality and dress codes in both the hotels where we stay and the restaurants we dine in

submonte

Surprised to hear that, and hope that is not going to happen. I have been to some Autograph Collection hotels in Germany, Italy and Hungary. They were all classical 5* luxury grand hotels (like Boscolo Exedra) or 5* boutique or design hotels (like Gewandhaus Dresden or Roomers Baden-Baden). For me Autograph Collection should be more the counterpart of Luxury Collection (and not Tribute Portfolio), that was Marriott´s idea as I understood it.

bhrubin

I do agree that many Boscolo properties could be appropriate for Luxury Collection--but those are the exceptions, not the rule, in the Autograph Collection. The overwhelming majority of Autograph Collection (and all of Tribute Portfolio) properties are 4 star properties.

Even Marriott's own brand page shows that Autograph Collection is in its PREMIUM BRANDS group (Distinctive Premium including Autograph, Le Méridien, and Westin, versus Classic Premium including Marriott, Sheraton, Delta, and Marriott Vacation Club). Those are below the two LUXURY BRANDS groups, of which Luxury Collection is part of Distinctive Luxury brand group (including Ritz Carlton Reserve, Bulgari, W, and Edition).

In other words, Marriott already has acknowledged that Autograph Collection is not nearly as luxurious overall as The Luxury Collection.

See http://www.marriott.com/marriott-brands.mi

There are management contracts governing the soft brand associations for these independent/boutique hotels in Marriott and Starwood portfolios. So when those contracts come up for renewal, or after mutual agreement by property owners and Marriot, those properties may be able to switch from one soft brand to another. I'm sure Marriott will keep Autograph because it has a much larger portfolio and soft brand recognition than Tribute Portfolio (which was started by Starwood to compete better with Marriott in the 4 star boutique market space). That is why I assume Tribute will be folded into Autograph over time.

There may be re-shuffling of some Autograph properties into Luxury Collection (perhaps the Boscolo properties, in fact), and even some Luxury Collection properties being "demoted" eventuallly into Autograph.

Keep in mind that these soft brand associations don't preclude a particular hotel from being particularly luxurious. The Gritti Palace in Venice is as nice as any St Regis hotel yet maintains its independent identity in the Luxury Collection. Yet there is nothing in the Autograph Collection as nice as the Gritti Palace, the Prince de Galles in Paris, the Hotel Imperial or Hotel Bristol in Vienna, Schloss Fushl in Salzburg, the Augustine in Prague, Mystique and Vdema on Santorini, the Grand Bretagne or King George in Athens, Tambo del Inka or Palacio del Inka in Peru, Al Maha or Grosvenor House in Dubai, the Prince Gallery Kioicho in Tokyo, the Suiran in Kyoto, Naka Island or Vana Belle in Thailand, the Chatwal in New York City, the US Grant in San Diego, etc.

submonte

Thank you for clarifying Marriott´s classification of its Autograph Collection which I was not aware of and what disappoints me a bit as I had another imagination. However it does not influence my opinion on those properties I stayed at but shows eventually the collection´s inconsistency. And Marriott listed its "JW" in the luxury segment - I would rate some Autograph hotels above the JWs I know, however I like that brand, too.

I agree that Autograph Collection probably has no such hotel as Gritti Palace (and eventually Imperial, Mystique and others you mentioned). I stayed at Gritti Palace on Pentecost weekend some months ago and it was one of the most outstanding stay experiences I ever had (room, service, food, everything). On the other hand Autograph Collection´s Boscolo Exedra Roma is Grand hotel luxury and for sure not to be classified below the St Regis opposite (and which is as brand rated as luxury in Marriotts´s scheme). So right, the current classification fails partly, but I agree with you that could be solved by switching it to Luxury Collection as soon as the contracts allow it.

bhrubin

I know this can be true, too--but again, not often. In addition to the wonderful Boscolo properties, there are a few others I know (Brown Palace Denver, Turnberry Isle, maybe Forsyth Mansion Savannah) that are supposed to be quite outstanding. But very few Autograph properties can lay claim to a proper luxury qualification IMO.

As I said before, I know Boscolo propertes can be quite luxurious. Though do keep in mind that service is as important as facilities quality when ascribing luxury. As with all brands and soft brands, there are stronger and weaker properties. There is a discussion elsewhere in FT about the Boscolo Exedra Rome versus the St Regis Rome, actuallly.

The StR Rome is now finishing a massive renovation, having finished its public spaces renovation already and now working on its refurbishment of rooms/suites. (In interests or disclosure, I'll be at the StR Rome in Oct, followed by the Imperial in Vienna and the Prince de Galles in Paris!) While the rooms/suite renovation won't be completed, I still chose the StR over the Boscolo Exedra because I expect better service at the StR (and because my SPG Plat100 status is likely to give me better treatment at the StR than my MR Plat status is likely to give me at the Exedra).

Boscolo properties will be as wonderful whether they are in Autograph or Luxury Collection. So that element isn't a big deal, actually--though the Boscolo ownership may wish to switch to Luxury Collection to give the properties better reinforcement for luxury qualification. Time will tell.